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Post subject: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:46 pm
So in my introduction post, I mentioned the need for a better IWB holster, and in another thread, I learned that I am definitely carrying wrong. I've worn it in the small of my back every single time. (I'd love to hear reasons why this is a bad idea).

If it helps to recommend a holster, I'm 6'1", 220 lbs with a 35" waist. I've been carrying a Beretta PX4.

Thanks for any advice!
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:56 am
The single biggest reason that SOB carry is, in my opinion, bad, is that it can cause severe injury if you fall and land on your back. It may never happen, granted, but if it does you run the risk of debilitating injuries up to and including paralyzation.

It is also slower than strong side or appendix, and most people muzzle themselves when drawing from SOB. Finally, when seated in a vehicle it is one of the more difficult places to draw from.

All of that said, it is a personal decision. The most important thing is that you carry, always, everywhere it is legal, so you can defend yourself if necessary.

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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:30 am
JustaShooter wrote:
The single biggest reason that SOB carry is, in my opinion, bad, is that it can cause severe injury if you fall and land on your back. It may never happen, granted, but if it does you run the risk of debilitating injuries up to and including paralyzation.

It is also slower than strong side or appendix, and most people muzzle themselves when drawing from SOB. Finally, when seated in a vehicle it is one of the more difficult places to draw from.

All of that said, it is a personal decision. The most important thing is that you carry, always, everywhere it is legal, so you can defend yourself if necessary.

+1

SOB is like ankle carrying, at best carried for back-up.

Start at 0:2.38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIoVw472U1o
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:48 am
You are big enough to carry a full size gun, but that does not mean carrying it is comfortable or convenient. You have to carry a gun that fits your hand. I will never be convinced that IWB is comfortable. One holster may not fulfill every situation; in a crowd, jogging, etc. Even time of year, tee-shirt versus coat.

And a well made holster makes all the difference in the world. I bought used holsters to test out. I'm left handed which makes it harder, but I don't have boxes of never to be used holsters like some.
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:10 am
One reason I am not a fan of SOB carry is situation awareness/control is more difficult. Look at this clip of a man being robbed of his gun to see what I mean.

http://bearingarms.com/man-robbed-gun-nearly-killed-philly/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:36 am
JustaShooter, that makes a lot of sense, and I read last night another issue is that when you're reaching back to draw, you've already completed 90% of an rear arm lock or wrist lock, leaving not much more work for the bad guy to complete the job.

Color of Law, I'm a southpaw too. Does it make it harder to find holsters? Do you have to special order everything?

Gfrlaser, yeah, I saw that video. That guy was pretty oblivious.
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:36 pm
Yes John, there are definitely less choices/quantities of left handed holsters out there. 'But Brian D. you are right handed, how do YOU know that?' somebody might ask.

Because one time I slightly injured my right arm and had to go find a lefty rig temporarily. That got me thinking it might be a good idea to have southpaw holsters for the guns I carry most often. And actually work with them sometimes.

Also, when I participated in Cowboy Action matches, there was/is a category called "gunfighter" which requires one revolver for each hand. It was such a blast to see I just had to get the gear and run some matches that way. Lots of fun.

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:30 pm
johnb wrote:
JustaShooter, that makes a lot of sense, and I read last night another issue is that when you're reaching back to draw, you've already completed 90% of an rear arm lock or wrist lock, leaving not much more work for the bad guy to complete the job.

Color of Law, I'm a southpaw too. Does it make it harder to find holsters? Do you have to special order everything?

Gfrlaser, yeah, I saw that video. That guy was pretty oblivious.

Yes. The right belt and the right holster is just as important as the gun.

My leather gun belt cost $75 and it was worth every dollar. It is over 6 years old and is still like new. It holds my holster tight against my body. I also have a 5.11 nylon mesh belt. It is nice, but I like my leather belt a lot better.

I also like leather holsters.
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:47 pm
Brian D. wrote:
Also, when I participated in Cowboy Action matches, there was/is a category called "gunfighter" which requires one revolver for each hand. It was such a blast to see I just had to get the gear and run some matches that way. Lots of fun.


Galco Custom Shop (IIRC, the ones that actually made the double-SOB for the John Woo movie Face/Off), Bell Charter Oak Holsters, Black Hills Leather, Rankin Saddlery, and Nevada Gun Leather are just a few I know that build actually workable leather double-SOB (aka. "The Castor Troy" or "NY Reload") rigs (and because of the interest that movie and its leading villain sparked, imitation/airsoft/paintball rigs also sprung up: for example, ZOSPEC Japan made a replica - though not nearly of the same quality as the Galco Custom Shop original).

K-Rounds builds a double SOB in Kydex.

The draw-stroke for dual wielding -

Image

- is kinda weird with a double-SOB, and while I've never tried it with a Kydex rig, after seeing this picture of the K-Rounds:

Image

^ I actually think that a palms-out draw on a leather holster, which has a little give so that the guns can slip out of the holster at a more acute angle once retention is broken and the draw has started - would be much more natural. Kydex, I think, would necessitate the palms-in method seen with the K-Rounds simply due to the stiffness of the material, and it would also limit the angle at which the guns can be carried - which, no matter how it's cut, is going to be a huge compromise in terms of comfort/concealment, particularly when the guns get large.

The Galcom Custom Shop piece is interesting, though - the retention is pretty unique, and it's actually open on both outer portions, allowing for a smooth "up and OUT" draw (with a straight-down holster-stroke). There should be an old thread (c.2009-2010?) thread on ARFCOM that shows exactly how it was done. Really, really slick, but much more expensive than the other custom leather rigs I named above.

I purchased the Rankin rig for airsoft gaming :oops: :P 8) , actually, and it's pretty neat. It held my twin airsoft 1911s higher and tighter (since it's a true pancake setup) than what the Galco Custom Shop item achieves, but the "V" angle is more relaxed (so it doesn't look as neat/cool as the Galco piece). Originally, IIRC, Rankin designed that particular SOB with a knife on the off side, at the request of a non-permissive environment specialist.

I used to do a lot of silly stunts playing airsoft - kinda like I was the star in a John Woo movie. :lol: Despite the placement of the holster, I never injured myself.

Then again, I was 15 years younger I was 60 lbs. lighter, and a heck of a lot more flexible in those days. :P

Image

The two airsoft 1911s on the belt were built to my specs by an "airsmith" in Hong Kong, and each cost about as much as a high-end production 1911.

The two in the twin shoulder rig (which was by Mernickle) are about ~$700 or so. I cobbled those two together from a base of a pair of limited edition airsofts from the then most respected Japanese airsoft gas-blowback pistol maker, and then upgraded and tuned each one with a laundry list of aftermarket parts.

Yes, you counted right. That's 14 spare mags. Airsoft BBs are pretty light. :) And yes, I wore a suit (a cheap one - I never came home with a fully intact wardrobe after a skirmish game, I'm rough on equipment) - how else can one play the role of a Triad boss?

Sorry for the derail, but this was just too much fun.

----

Back on-topic....

My main issue with SOB carry is access when on the ground.

Skipping the failure(s) that resulted in your being on the ground and the unlikelihood that you'd be looking to bring the gun into the fight at that stage, the fact that it is underneath you, with both your body weight and likely that of your opponent(s) bearing down - that pretty much makes it impossible for you to bring that tool into play, whether you want to or not.

All the other stuff: retention/gun-grab concerns, falling/injury, comfort.... I think that's all very debatable.

And finally, I'll end with this:

What, exactly, is "SOB?"

Is that precisely at 6-o'clock? Or is "SOB" also 5-o'clock? Or does that somehow become "behind the hip?"

It's like people debating exactly what's "appendix"/"inguinal" carry. Does it stop at the 1-o'clock? Or can you push it towards the 2 or even 2:30 (where, anatomically, is the appendix? maybe this is why some choose to call this inguinal carry?)? So if your muzzle is at your 6-o'clock but the grip protrudes to your 5 or even 4:30, then what is that - is that a "SOB" holster, or is that a "behind the hip?" Does that magically then make that holster more appropriate for carry?

Figure out what *you* want/need out of how you carry. Find the right gear to mesh with those wants and needs. :)

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:13 pm
Just for clarity Allen I wasn't referring to SOB carry at all in my last post. Just weak (left) side at 10 o'clock instead of right at 2 o'clock. Same with the Cowboy Action 'Gunfighter' category.

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:15 pm
Also, what do southpaws call their equivalent of appendix carry? ;)

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:36 pm
Brian D. wrote:
Just for clarity Allen I wasn't referring to SOB carry at all in my last post. Just weak (left) side at 10 o'clock instead of right at 2 o'clock. Same with the Cowboy Action 'Gunfighter' category.


^ Understood. :) But hey, I was having way too much fun thinking about dual-wielding! 8)

Brian D. wrote:
Also, what do southpaws call their equivalent of appendix carry? ;)


Oooh...maybe that's where "inguinal carry" comes from?

Or it could be the "my other appendix" carry?

"Intestinal malrotation" carry?

"Situs inversus" carry?

The possibilities are endless! :lol:

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:23 pm
Johnb if you are anywhere near Middletown I would urge you to stop in at Stoners.They fitted me for a holster there and had a bunch of stock for Left handers.I am also left handed and was very impressed the way customer service is from them. They also make the holsters there.
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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:09 am
I have two SOB holsters by Galco that I have used to carry my 1911. One of them holsters the gun straight up and down inside the waistband and uses a clip to secure the holster to the belt. The other holsters the gun outside the waistband canted at a 45 degree angle and slides on the belt.

The inside the waistband holster holds the gun at an irregular angle, which makes it somewhat difficult to draw without a fair amount of practice. It might be impractical for some situations where you have to draw from concealment where the targeted threat is able to visually engage you. The other small of the back holster, like all SOB holsters may require that in addition to telegraphing your actions to your assailant, that when you draw your firearm that you sweep someone standing nearby.

I don't use the IWB SOB holster anymore, although may use the OWB SOB holster where I need to conceal my handgun under a suit and I might expose my gun with an OWB strong side hip holster.

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Post subject: Re: Holsters and Small of Back carry
Post Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:05 pm
I'll have to admit that the holster issue is the hardest thing for me right now. I have a Bersa .380 and have a iwb holster, two shoulder holsters and a own holster.
OWB-Fobus holster. I like it the best. Although I know I need other options. I am still breaking it in, it takes two hands still to draw. My belt may be the problem.
Shoulder holster: Brand is Bulldog. To be fair I have not really tried it out yet as I am waiting on my permit to arrive in the mail.
Shoulder holster: Brand is Remora. Waiting on this as I ordered it at Christmas.
IWB: Brand is Quest. In a moment of weakness I let a guy sell me this at a store. It was not labeled for a Bersa .380 but he said it would probably fit. It swallows my Bersa whole. So I will try to give it away or something.
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