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Post subject: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:27 pm
Just did a renewal and found out that even though SSN is optional (which I left blank) it is still filled in on the application by the sheriff/agent handling the "interview". I also discovered that all applications were kept/maintained in hardcopy and that it was only the background check which is detroyed. I was under the impression they were destroyed, but that is not the case. I also found it interesting to learn that fingerprints had to be resubmitted. Not a big deal, but I asked amd was told they change. That they either wear down or can be affected by various chemicals. At least that was what I was told.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:09 pm
What sheriff's office is this???? Whoever wrote in your SS number has no authority to do so. This needs to be corrected.

Application is kept, read ORC 311.41 Criminal records check and incompetency check of applicant. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/311.41
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Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:45 am
Posts: 2681
Location: Too close to Cincinnati
Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:41 pm
IANAL, but the way I read ORC 311.41 the applicant's SSAN is REQUIRED to be entered and used for the background investigation.
The law now reads at least 4 electronic finger prints or a full 10 print card is to be used.
That law has been amended twice since I first applied for my Ohio CHL and my renewal. I both cases only one finger was used for the electronic fingerprint scan.

AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:29 pm
The application shows it as optional. But regardless, I'm unfamiliar with the law that makes it illegal for the sheriff's office to fill it in if you left it blank. CoL, perhaps you can point me to it?

Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:36 am
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Location: Akron/Canton
Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:16 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
The application shows it as optional. But regardless, I'm unfamiliar with the law that makes it illegal for the sheriff's office to fill it in if you left it blank. CoL, perhaps you can point me to it?

Because you signed the app.
Quote:
...I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that if I knowingly make any false statements herein I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff or the sheriff’s designee to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application.
If you signed the app. then the app. is altered by someone else then app. is not a true app.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:19 pm
Got it. So it would be fine to write their SSN on a post-it note and stick it to the app for reference, but not actually fill in the field on the application itself.

Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:26 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
Got it. So it would be fine to write their SSN on a post-it note and stick it to the app for reference, but not actually fill in the field on the application itself.
Yes. Now the applicant could write it in, initial and date it. That would be acceptable to a court.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:13 pm
The reason the app. says on the SSN as optional is federal law prohibits the use. It does not matter what state law says.
Read the footnote under 5 USC 552a.
Quote:
Disclosure of Social Security Number

Pub. L. 93–579, § 7, Dec. 31, 1974, 88 Stat. 1909, provided that:
“(a)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.
“(2) the [The] provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to—
“(A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or
(B) the disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the identity of an individual.
“(b) Any Federal, State, or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it.”

Also see 42 USC 405.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:12 pm
Very interesting responses, thank you. The previous application must have required it (or at least did not have "optional" written next to it). I was told that the application was being changed to soon exclude the word "optional" next to the SSN. I cannot wait for some new law to come about that says "Constitutional Carry for EVERYONE" and requires all previous applications to be properly destroyed.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:52 am
OhioLoaded wrote:
Very interesting responses, thank you. The previous application must have required it (or at least did not have "optional" written next to it). I was told that the application was being changed to soon exclude the word "optional" next to the SSN. I cannot wait for some new law to come about that says "Constitutional Carry for EVERYONE" and requires all previous applications to be properly destroyed.

Optional is there so not to go afoul of federal law.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Renewal
Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:50 am
It's been nearly 50 years since I was allowed near a LEADS terminal, but back then, at least, we could get your SSN in a flash (well, a long flash - LEADS was running on a Teletype Model 35 terminal "here", connected by a dedicated phone line to Columbus and talking to a decent sized IBM mainframe). Why was I "on" it in the first place? I knew how to work the Teletype, and the PD Dispatcher appreciated the training. Current access rules practically require a 4473 and LEADS check to touch the keyboard.

Access involved some kind of "code" that told the system what you wanted, and the search key, all of which were punched onto a Teletype tape. (Little bitty holes in paper tape!) Then you inserted the tape into a "reader" on the Teletype and pushed a few buttons. If you didn't muck it up, the Computer in Columbus would tell your tape reader to send the little tape. When searching by name, for example, you could then type a single letter to ask to see a few more records "forward", or "backward", or request a full history. Different codes were used to specify different functions....

Obviously designed by a computer person :D....

I would expect that the possibility still exists to use LEADS to get your SSN, and that the individual handling the application could probably look up your SSN that way, and pencil it on a Post-It, or on the application form. You putting it on the form just saves somebody five minutes (on the system I used way back when). They likely are hitting the OH LEADS database anyway, and once you use LEADS to find an SSN you've got the SSN anyway, and any other information you might have wanted from there.

I expect that the other systems that you might be looking at are set up this way, too, but why take the extra time v.s. a pencil note....

I'm kind of used to having my SSN all over the place. Not necessarily happy :), but this has been going on since forever, and it may be way too late to really do much about it. Even if you can set up a system that uses another index, you still would likely need a conversion table.

Not impossible, but getting the Congress to spend the money ought to be interesting, as in impossible....

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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