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Post subject: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:53 pm
Go to Montg Cnty fair .org site and center of front page: NO CCW ALLOWED

Go to fair grounds and NO signs, not even on buildings.

I ask the Sheriff what's up? Old Fairground was ok except inside buildings - same as Ohio Fair... He said "you don't see any signs do you?' No. He said the buildings were supposed to be posted but they did not get the signs up so he said "I will not be enforcing no carry inside buildings."

Asked about website front and center notice: mumbling - seems our country fair organizers are very un organized.
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:11 pm
Good to know - and, consider that many buildings on a county fairground may well qualify as "shelters", and are thus exempt from the prohibition against carrying concealed into government facilities. Some counties have (apparently) made the determination that barns are "shelters" and do not post them, but do post other buildings that qualify as "government facilities".

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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:50 am
The Open Carrying of firearms in Ohio government buildings that are open to the public is not prohibited.

How do we know this?

First, R.C. 2923.121 through R.C. 2923.1213 are supplemental sections of R.C. 2923.12 dealing with the conceal carrying of firearms. See “A Guidebook for Ohio Legislators,” page 63. https://www.lsc.ohio.gov/documents/refe ... book17.pdf

Second, R.C. 2923.1212 is addressed to state agencies or state government entities, not the citizens or conceal carry licensees. R.C. 2923.1212 instructs certain state agencies to post warning signs. In other words, posted signs on state government buildings only apply to the concealed carrying of firearms into state government buildings, not the open carrying of firearms in those same buildings.

Generally, other than bars (R.C. 2923.121), schools (R.C. 2923.122), courthouses (R.C. 2923.123), jails and state run mental hospitals, Ohio law does not interfere with citizens' inalienable right, as protected by the Ohio Constitution, of the open carrying of firearms on public property open the public, either outside under the sky or inside a building. Open carry is a right, not a privilege. Concealed carry of a firearm is a privilege in Ohio. See R.C. 9.68.

In State v. Shelton, 63 Ohio App.3d 137, 140, 578 N.E.2d 473 (4th Dist. 1989), the court stated: (“The issue is: Did she have a privilege to enter the lobby of the sheriff's office? As a general rule, a person has the right to enter and be upon the public areas of public property. So we have to ask: May a county official revoke such a privilege when the official finds that person to be a nuisance? We think not.”) In other words, it says you cannot be charged with trespass for just being in the open to the public area of a state building just because some government employee doesn't like you being there.

Open carry, being a constitutional protected right, by itself does not support a charge of Disorderly Conduct, Inducing Panic or even Trespass when exercised in public places open to the public. See Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Department, 785 F.3d 1128, 1132 (6th Cir. 2015)

Under the present law we know a person may be prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon in a public building under R.C. 2923.126(B)(9). So, what law says it's a crime to open carry in a state government building open to the public? We know it's not R.C. 2923.12 or R.C. 2923.1212. And in light of R.C. 9.68 Ohio law, generally, only prohibits open carry in courthouses, jails, schools, bars and state run mental hospitals.

Additionally, the Federal 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept., 785 F. 3d 1128 – 2015 stated (“Ohio law permits the open carry of firearms, Ohio Rev. Code § 9.68(C)(1)”). The Northrup court also said: (“If it is appropriate to presume that citizens know the parameters of the criminal laws, it is surely appropriate to expect the same of law enforcement officers—at least with regard to unambiguous statutes. Heien v. North Carolina, 135 S. Ct. 530, 540 (2014).”)

The Ohio General Assembly just recently passed SB 199 which was signed into law by Governor Kasich that took effect on March 21, 2017. Some of the changes to SB 199 clarifies what is stated above.

Presently, 2923.1212(A) says: The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.":


And 2923.1212(A)(9) says: The officer of this state or of a political subdivision of this state, or the officer's designee, who has charge of a building that is a government facility of this state or the political subdivision of this state, as defined in section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of that section.

So, under 2923.1212 a sign is to be posted on a building that is a government facility as defined in 2923.126.

2923.126(B) says: A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

The new 2923.126(B)(7) says: Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section, unless the governing body with authority over the building has enacted a statute, ordinance, or policy that permits a licensee to carry a concealed handgun into the building; (Underlining is the addition to the law.)

This change to the law clearly points out the posted sign as described in 2923.1212 applies to concealed carry licensees carrying concealed, not the open carrying of firearms. Open carrying of a firearm in the public areas of buildings that are Ohio government facilities is perfectly legal and cannot be prohibited by local law, rule or legislation.
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:59 pm
Sweet. Thank you.
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:14 am
A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement and to the best of my knowledge has not been tested in court.

If you choose to take advantage of that reasoning you should be prepared for the possibility that you will encounter a LEO who disagrees and may well become the first test case that clarifies the legality of open carry into government facilities other than a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located, school safety zones, and other areas where possession of a firearm is specifically prohibited under Ohio law.

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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:14 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement and to the best of my knowledge has not been tested in court.

If you choose to take advantage of that reasoning you should be prepared for the possibility that you will encounter a LEO who disagrees and may well become the first test case that clarifies the legality of open carry into government facilities other than a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located, school safety zones, and other areas where possession of a firearm is specifically prohibited under Ohio law.

“A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement.”

That is an interesting statement. I didn’t know that law enforcement officers get to arrest someone based on an officer’s opinion of the law versus the law. As I clearly pointed out, the 6th circuit court of appeals (Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept.) made it clear that ignorance of the law is no excuse and they specifically directed towards police officers.

I have open carried in our township building a number of times without incident, but as you well know before I pursue such an endeavor I give notice. What I posted above is easily converted into a notice. And that notice being sent to any police chief, law director and other elected officials paves the way to educate ignorant officials and their law enforcement officers.

My question to you is what law do you believe the person would be charged with violating for open carrying in the public area of an Ohio government building?
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:45 pm
So signs on most government buildings around ohio are illegal when they say no firearms allowed?
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:35 pm
phillip wrote:
So signs on most government buildings around ohio are illegal when they say no firearms allowed?


Not exactly, There is no law against open carry into government facilities (other than those with specific laws against firearms like courthouses and schools) just concealed carry. And, the content of the signage for government facilities is mandated by law.

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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:46 pm
color of law wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement and to the best of my knowledge has not been tested in court.

If you choose to take advantage of that reasoning you should be prepared for the possibility that you will encounter a LEO who disagrees and may well become the first test case that clarifies the legality of open carry into government facilities other than a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located, school safety zones, and other areas where possession of a firearm is specifically prohibited under Ohio law.

“A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement.”

That is an interesting statement. I didn’t know that law enforcement officers get to arrest someone based on an officer’s opinion of the law versus the law. As I clearly pointed out, the 6th circuit court of appeals (Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept.) made it clear that ignorance of the law is no excuse and they specifically directed towards police officers.

I have open carried in our township building a number of times without incident, but as you well know before I pursue such an endeavor I give notice. What I posted above is easily converted into a notice. And that notice being sent to any police chief, law director and other elected officials paves the way to educate ignorant officials and their law enforcement officers.

My question to you is what law do you believe the person would be charged with violating for open carrying in the public area of an Ohio government building?


You'll note that nowhere did I disagree with your opinion, I only recommended caution to those that might choose to follow it.

Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept. certainly won't prevent an officer from arresting someone they believe is breaking the law, even if they are mistaken. Such things happen all the time, and the individual officers are not held accountable for it.

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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:55 pm
phillip wrote:
So signs on most government buildings around ohio are illegal when they say no firearms allowed?

Quote:
2923.1212 Signage prohibiting concealed handguns.
(A) The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.":

It says "substantially the following form." It does not have to be the exact wording.
As I explained above, The suggestion says "Unless otherwise authorized by law..." What law disallows the openly carrying of firearms in Ohio public buildings? There is none. But, 2923.126(B) does say where you cannot carry concealed.
Last edited by color of law on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Montgomery County Fair 2018 posted but not
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:07 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
color of law wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement and to the best of my knowledge has not been tested in court.

If you choose to take advantage of that reasoning you should be prepared for the possibility that you will encounter a LEO who disagrees and may well become the first test case that clarifies the legality of open carry into government facilities other than a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located, school safety zones, and other areas where possession of a firearm is specifically prohibited under Ohio law.

“A cautionary note: Color of law's well-presented opinion may not be widely held by law enforcement.”

That is an interesting statement. I didn’t know that law enforcement officers get to arrest someone based on an officer’s opinion of the law versus the law. As I clearly pointed out, the 6th circuit court of appeals (Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept.) made it clear that ignorance of the law is no excuse and they specifically directed towards police officers.

I have open carried in our township building a number of times without incident, but as you well know before I pursue such an endeavor I give notice. What I posted above is easily converted into a notice. And that notice being sent to any police chief, law director and other elected officials paves the way to educate ignorant officials and their law enforcement officers.

My question to you is what law do you believe the person would be charged with violating for open carrying in the public area of an Ohio government building?


You'll note that nowhere did I disagree with your opinion, I only recommended caution to those that might choose to follow it.

Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dept. certainly won't prevent an officer from arresting someone they believe is breaking the law, even if they are mistaken. Such things happen all the time, and the individual officers are not held accountable for it.

I'm not taking issue with your statement. That's why I explained what I wrote could be turned into a notice. The question I asked was meant for others. I had a strong inkling you knew the answer.

Anyone could get an attorney to write an opinion letter. All I can say is I have one township attorney that took no issue with my notice.
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