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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:50 pm
IMHO........NRA I think that I have a problem with is your screen name being what it is...you come off as the end all be all of Factual information but yet you dont research what you say. People here see what an Instructor writes and believe it to be true... You might want to either:

1 change your screen name
2 write IMHO before you start writing
3 say that I am not a lawyer and what I say is not to be used as leagal advise
4 not be so quick to comment on things your unsure of
5 if your not sure ask in a PM

If you find this to be a harsh its not it intent. It is to remind you of how you represent all NRA Instructors. I know your intentions are good but please see how you are coming across. Again sorry if you feel this is harsh but I had to say it.

To all others that read this and also feel it is harsh I appologize to them as well but I felt it needed to be said.

John
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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:06 pm
Just a quick note regarding Roger Polk's course taught in Wadsworth Ohio. The NRA has had inspectors at the class and approved the course. The President of Buckeye Firearms has been a guest speaker at the class numerous times, along with the Medina County Sheriff.
Thousands of students have gone through this particular class and gotten their CCW license. Anyone thinking or implying that this course is in any way illegal, is misinformed and greatly mistaken.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirement, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:13 pm
my personal opinion is to be blunt.......................


is after some of the people/vegetables who i have seen taken the course anything more than 12 hours in any given condition with them and there would be two words i would have to say ........


justiciable homacide.............

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:32 pm
glockfanjohn wrote:
IMHO........NRA I think that I have a problem with is your screen name being what it is...you come off as the end all be all of Factual information but yet you dont research what you say. People here see what an Instructor writes and believe it to be true... You might want to either:

1 change your screen name
2 write IMHO before you start writing
3 say that I am not a lawyer and what I say is not to be used as leagal advise
4 not be so quick to comment on things your unsure of
5 if your not sure ask in a PM

If you find this to be a harsh its not it intent. It is to remind you of how you represent all NRA Instructors. I know your intentions are good but please see how you are coming across. Again sorry if you feel this is harsh but I had to say it.

To all others that read this and also feel it is harsh I appologize to them as well but I felt it needed to be said.


No hard feelings at all, I appreciate your honesty. The screen name was just the first thing that came to mind and ended up being available. I have been wrong here before and I have no problem admiting that. As I said to you in a PM once, I am new to Forums so I am still learning when to keep my mouth shut. I am here to educate myself so that I can educate my students in real life. I guess maybe I failed to realize that people looking on here ARE real people... Sounds silly maybe but that's the best explanation I have.

I will for sure start saying things like IANAL or IMHO or correct me if I'm wrong...etc. Very good advice and I appreciate your honesty.

On a side note, my dad joined me at Blackwing today and we just sort of quietly observed. He was shocked at some of the laws we have here and he has 45 years or so in law enforcement and training. We are all learning, but I totally get what you are saying and I probably needed that- even though it should have been sent in a PM.
-Joel

Joel
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Last edited by NRAInstructor on Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:05 pm
Hask12 wrote:
Just a quick note regarding Roger Polk's course taught in Wadsworth Ohio. The NRA has had inspectors at the class and approved the course. The President of Buckeye Firearms has been a guest speaker at the class numerous times, along with the Medina County Sheriff.
Thousands of students have gone through this particular class and gotten their CCW license. Anyone thinking or implying that this course is in any way illegal, is misinformed and greatly mistaken.

I don't know Mr. Polk, and I've never taken his class.

I merely quoted the law that specifies what must be included in a training course in order to meet the requirements of the State of Ohio.

Comparing the description of Mr. Polk's course provided by one of your attendees to the law would lead me to the conclusion that his course doesn't meet the requirements specified by the state. Mr. Polk's course can meet NRA requirements and be "legal" (nobody said it was against the law to be trained by Mr. Polk!) without meeting the requirements spelled out in the law for obtaining an Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun.

It's obvious from looking at the law itself that if an instructor wants to spend any time going over the laws regarding concealed carry - an ADMIRABLE AND DESIRABLE THING! - the course must be longer than twelve hours in order to remain valid for licensure.

To those who would reflexively disagree, where do you find time to properly handle legal matters while still spending the entire twelve hours on the subjects mandated by 2923.125(G)(1)? If you read the statute, you'll note that it doesn't say "You must teach for twelve hours - make sure you cover these subjects." Instead, it says (paraphrased, of course) "You must teach at least twelve hours' worth of these subjects," implying that if you want to teach something in addition to the topics listed, you have to allow additional time to do so.

I'm not arguing that Mr. Polk's class isn't the "standard" approach to training here in Ohio. I'm not arguing that he's a bad trainer, or that he should be singled out for any sort of negative publicity. I am arguing that his course, assuming it's been accurately described in this thread, doesn't meet the criteria specified in the law. I'm also pretty certain that it'd be hard to find a trainer whose course plan DOES meet the legal requirements.

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:04 am
Hask12 wrote:
Just a quick note regarding Roger Polk's course taught in Wadsworth Ohio. The NRA has had inspectors at the class and approved the course. The President of Buckeye Firearms has been a guest speaker at the class numerous times, along with the Medina County Sheriff.
Thousands of students have gone through this particular class and gotten their CCW license. Anyone thinking or implying that this course is in any way illegal, is misinformed and greatly mistaken.


Hask12,

The NRA and Buckeye Firearms have nothing to do with whether the class is legal or not. The NRA thinks their instructors should just pass out the AG's booklet and NOT talk about it, or hire an outside expert (lawyer or cop) to talk about it.

It is required to meet the ORC requirements as listed below (caged from JABeatty's post).

"(G)(1) Each course, class, or program described in division (B)(3)(a), (b), (c), or (e) of this section shall provide to each person who takes the course, class, or program the web site address at which the pamphlet prepared by the Ohio peace officer training commission pursuant to section 109.731 of the Revised Code that reviews firearms, dispute resolution, and use of deadly force matters may be found. Each such course, class, or program described in one of those divisions shall include at least twelve hours of training in the safe handling and use of a firearm that shall include all of the following:

(a) At least ten hours of training on the following matters: (i) The ability to name, explain, and demonstrate the rules for safe handling of a handgun and proper storage practices for handguns and ammunition;

(ii) The ability to demonstrate and explain how to handle ammunition in a safe manner;

(iii) The ability to demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to shoot a handgun in a safe manner;

(iv) Gun handling training.

(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training."

That would be determined by the Local Sheriff of the county that the student applied for a licens in.

As JABeatty said, the course, as farslayer described it, DOES NOT meet the ORC requirements. Classes that do not meet the requirements put EVERY person who took a class from that instructor in a gray area, if they get nailed for an illegal course, they they have a very short window to get a new and LEGAL course or they loose their license. The instructor can be fined, or go to jail for certifying things taught that, in fact were NOT taught.

I am not trying to dump on anyone, but if we don't police ourselves, someone else will police us. There is a standard that must be adhered to, NO MATTER WHAT THE INSTRUCTOR THINKS SHOULD BE TAUGHT! Those standards MUST BE MET to be a legal class.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:37 am
NRAInstructor wrote:
Buckshot,

Thanks for the info. I am still learning- when I post something and someone corrects me I learn. That's why I'm on the forum. If you have the OPOTC Model lesson plan, please email it to me. I printed it out about 2 years ago (haven't even looked at it since) and lost it. Just kind of curious, maybe it's not how I remember it. I have the old NRA Basic Pistol Training Guide (dated 9-05) and it says 8 hours. It also says 8 hours on the NRA site. It used to be 10, like John said. I am aware of what the law requires me to cover, and I do cover all of it. I haven't been around since the begining- I may very well be wrong on some things. This is an interesting post to me, even though it's starting to make my head hurt. :lol:

What I do personally (to comply with ohio laws and NRA policy) is as follows:

Introduce myself, let the students introduce themselves and talk about thier experience/training so we all know eachother and I get a heads-up on who may need special attention. Then I explain that the NRA does not have a CCW class, we are simply allowed to teach this class. I tell everyone this will be very basic safety stuff, we will not be rolling around in mud or shooting from behind cover, etc. I tell them after we go through the NRA material and take the test we will be shooting for 2 hours minimum. This Introduction is much longer than what I typed here, but that is a summary. I then explain that after we get back from the range, we are done with the NRA Basic Pistol Program. That is usually around the 10 hour mark (I get long-winded telling stories and answering questions). We all come back and open up the Ohio CHL book and discuss everything in there and cover everything in the book. If there is extra time, I have a million other things we can talk about that may be helpful, depending on the group. Usually I have to rush through certian sections just to keep everything on schedule. At the end of the class, when I am filling out certificates and the students are doing evaluations, I tell them to feel free to contact me if they forgot to ask something, ever want to come shooting or ANYTHING- I'm there for them. If I don't know the answer I will not guess (unlike how I do one here), but I will try to find someone who does know. I also explain that they just went through everything the Ohio Law requires, but should by no means stop training.

I teach when I can (usually one to two classes a month with 5-10 students each class) and charge as little as possible to cover my own expenses and time. I have a full time job, so teaching is more of a hobby even though I take it very seriously. I have never had a bad evaluation. In fact, most people grade me 5 out of 5 on everything and write things like "great class had lots of fun" under additional comments. I am not bragging about that, it just makes me feel good. Several of my students have become friends of mine.

Below is a description from the NRA website of the Basic Pistol Program, copied and pasted today(yeah yeah I know it used to be 10)


Name : NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course


Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude for owning and operating a pistol safely.

More Details: This course is at least 8-hours long and includes classroom and range time learning to shoot revolvers and semi-automatic pistols. Students learn NRA’s rules for safe gun handling; pistol parts and operation; ammunition; shooting fundamentals; range rules; shooting from the bench rest position, and two handed standing positions; cleaning the pistol; and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Pistol Shooting handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, take a Basics of Pistol Shooting Student Examination, and course completion certificate. (Lesson Plan 2nd edition, 2009)

[email protected]



NRAInstructor,

Just to let you know where I am coming from, the book I used to take my CCW Class was listed at first edition 1991, Jan. 1991 but at the bottom of that same page it says 13270 04/03 so I am guessing it is the April 2003 reprint? I actually took the course for CCW purposes on 03/21/04.

The book I got with my Instructor Pack when I took the Pistol Instructor course is basically the same book but it has 04/04 I guess being the April 2004 reprint? I actually took the Pistol Instructor course, along with the Home Firearms Safety Instructor's Course and the Personal Protection in the Home Instructor's course in September and October of 2005.

As you said, it has been reduced since then, but at that time it was 8 hours classroom and two hours range for 10 hours total. This was the standard at the time the CCW Law was written and adopted and that is the standard the law still requires to be held to.

The NRA has actually changed and shortened a course that is in the ORC in it's OLD version. But we know the NRA refuses to let the Basic Pistol Course be used for CCW, so they have been bucking the law all along.

I have been wanting to take Personal Protection Outside the Home, but the NRA seems scared of their own class and because of that have the Instructor rating for that same course priced clear out of any reasonable person investing that much time and money taking it.

I work with three other NRA Certified Instructors and four OPOTA certified instructors. We teach an alternate course approved by our local sheriff and accepted by at least 19 other counties we know of at this point. We also teach, when there is enough free money in the economy to get students for them, advanced classes, some of which are 8 hours long, worked completely from the holster and involve firing 400 - 500 rounds of ammo in that 8 hour period.

When your head really hurts, blood runs out of your ears and one eye blows out from over-pressure, then you just about have it figured out, which means Columbus will change it again! Some of us have lived, carried and taught through three major changes so far, with, probably, more to come!

We have ONLY run one day classes for the last 4 years, no one can seem to commit or hold to the commitment to make a multiple day, multiple session class. They want to "git er done" as Larry the Cable Guy says. Classes run 7:00 AM - 7:00 PM. Some of the guys (the owner of the group and the co-owners) start the day off. I usually drift in between 11:00 AM and Noon and finish the course out at 7:00 PM. Others leave, some of them working uniformed security at venues that night.

We have found, through feedback from students, that getting new people in at various times during the course changes the course little by little as someone new comes on and one of the earlier ones fade out. It gives them more slightly divergent views and more people to talk to on breaks. I am the Range Officer and my Line Instructors drift in over the afternoon after I get there. We put a ratio of 1 instructor for every two students on the line. We won't work with a higher ratio that that. At any time, an instructor can, if necessary, take physical control of both of the students firearms they are responsible for. That ratio does not count me, as the range officer, either!

I will see what I can do about sending the OPOTC stuff to you. They are .pdf files.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:49 am
NRAInstructor,

Emails with .pdf files inbound.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:21 am
Buckshot wrote:
NRAInstructor,

Emails with .pdf files inbound.

Buckshot


Thank you.

I'd like to have a 14 hour class with three or more instructors and even have a lawyer do the legal portion. I do it the way I do because it makes it cheaper for the students ( I don't have to charge as much), but it sounds like what you do is pretty cool. Sometimes it makes me nervous supervising 8-10 people at the range by myself, but I have very strict rules that so far, everyone has followed. Nobody picks up a loaded pistol until we've covered all the safety stuff, and then review it. and review it again. Plus, I've only had a few first time shooters and they get special attention.


My "CHL" class, that I took in 2007 was BS... it was $100 for four hours in a guy's living room. Then we drove to a range, where I had to wait in line, pay my range fees and got to shoot for about 10 minutes. He said, "good enough" and that was that. Got a copy of the Attorney General book but I gave it back because I had already read it. The other guy in my class got the same certificate and had zero experience walking into this guy's house (with a Hi-Point- one in the chamber he forgot about). Instructors like that should be smacked. Thankfully, I was raised by a Columbus Police Officer/trainer, so I knew my way around a handgun. That guy, not so much!

Started ranting and raving there but anyway, thanks for the pdf I will go check it out.

Joel
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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirement, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:28 am
I know this wont be very popular, but contrary to the OP, I feel the CCL course should be longer. I actually believe the NRA Basic Pistol class should be separate and a prerequisite to a CCL class.

The CCL class should be more along the lines of an Advanced class that most instructors offer. Covering carry specific topics like presenting from a holster, safe carry techniques, shooting from cover, clearing a room, etc. An instructor could also go into more detail about the CCL laws and how they apply to certain hypothetical situations. At least another 10 hr class.

I read somewhere (but can't confirm) that most negligent discharges occur while holstering or removing a weapon from a holster. If this is true, it doesn't make sense to me that presenting from concealment is not a requirement of the CCL class but is basically a requirement to CCW.

The goal should be to give each CCL holder the skill set to carry safely and legally.

Just my 2 cents...

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:32 am
As for the comments from someone about Roger Polk's class about him spending 8 hours on law...., are you possibly exagerating a little? I don't know Roger, but have ALWAYS heard very high claims about him and his group of instructors. BFA chairman Jim Irvine has spoken MANY times at Roger's classes. Trust me, if Jim thought there was ANYTHING not on the up and up, he'd be the first one to point it out. We have removed many instructors information from our website when we have heard that they are not instructing properly.

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:55 pm
NRAInstructor wrote:
Buckshot wrote:
NRAInstructor,

Emails with .pdf files inbound.

Buckshot


Thank you.

I'd like to have a 14 hour class with three or more instructors and even have a lawyer do the legal portion. I do it the way I do because it makes it cheaper for the students ( I don't have to charge as much), but it sounds like what you do is pretty cool. Sometimes it makes me nervous supervising 8-10 people at the range by myself, but I have very strict rules that so far, everyone has followed. Nobody picks up a loaded pistol until we've covered all the safety stuff, and then review it. and review it again. Plus, I've only had a few first time shooters and they get special attention.


My "CHL" class, that I took in 2007 was BS... it was $100 for four hours in a guy's living room. Then we drove to a range, where I had to wait in line, pay my range fees and got to shoot for about 10 minutes. He said, "good enough" and that was that. Got a copy of the Attorney General book but I gave it back because I had already read it. The other guy in my class got the same certificate and had zero experience walking into this guy's house (with a Hi-Point- one in the chamber he forgot about). Instructors like that should be smacked. Thankfully, I was raised by a Columbus Police Officer/trainer, so I knew my way around a handgun. That guy, not so much!

Started ranting and raving there but anyway, thanks for the pdf I will go check it out.


IMHO I would have reported that instructor to the NRA and had his credntials revoked or suspended....It is your duty to make sure the course is taught the way it should be and that the minimuns are taught by Ohio Law. If you choosse to run longers and teach more than is required than that is up to you. Just remember that if you teach using NRA insurance that if you go out of the lesson plan then they will not cover you if anything happens.

John
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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:47 am
NRAInstructor wrote:
Buckshot wrote:
NRAInstructor,

Emails with .pdf files inbound.

Buckshot


Thank you.

I'd like to have a 14 hour class with three or more instructors and even have a lawyer do the legal portion. I do it the way I do because it makes it cheaper for the students ( I don't have to charge as much), but it sounds like what you do is pretty cool. Sometimes it makes me nervous supervising 8-10 people at the range by myself, but I have very strict rules that so far, everyone has followed. Nobody picks up a loaded pistol until we've covered all the safety stuff, and then review it. and review it again. Plus, I've only had a few first time shooters and they get special attention.


My "CHL" class, that I took in 2007 was BS... it was $100 for four hours in a guy's living room. Then we drove to a range, where I had to wait in line, pay my range fees and got to shoot for about 10 minutes. He said, "good enough" and that was that. Got a copy of the Attorney General book but I gave it back because I had already read it. The other guy in my class got the same certificate and had zero experience walking into this guy's house (with a Hi-Point- one in the chamber he forgot about). Instructors like that should be smacked. Thankfully, I was raised by a Columbus Police Officer/trainer, so I knew my way around a handgun. That guy, not so much!

Started ranting and raving there but anyway, thanks for the pdf I will go check it out.


NRAInstructor,

The instructor you took your CCW class from is illegal. WHEN he is caught he will be tried and either jailed, fined or both.

The problem is, all of his former students will be given 30 or 90 days to take a NEW CLASS from a DIFFERENT INSTRUCTOR and pay for it themselves. They can, should they desire, try to recoup their losses in civil court.

There is a guy hanging right now (Cleveland area, I think) who got nailed shorting times on classes. In the system and in process now.

There is also a guy from the Toledo area who got nailed selling certificates (no class, just give name and bucks and here is your class certificate) and he is in the system and in process too!

If any of our students even propose short-cutting things I tell them I AM NOT going to jail for them. They will stay the whole time or NOT get a certificate.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:14 pm
Interesting Discussion and it brings to mind one location that seems to be doing it right..

http://sim-trainer.com/civilian.shtml They offer a CCW course that is 16 Hours long. the additional 4 Hours is coverage of the legal aspect of Concealed carry in Ohio, and is taught by a Lawyer. You can also take JUST the 4 Hour legal portion of their class as an addition to the CCW course you took elsewhere. I previously didn't understand why they taught their course in this fashion, but now i get it..

I guess not being instructors, Most of us took for granted that we took a 12 Hour course from a certified instructor and that instructor taught us what we were supposed to know, within the legal guidelines for the course. Apparently that's not necessarily the case.

Without training on the legal portion I would think there would be many ccw holders getting dinged for the 'gotchas' in the law, like the previous stipulation of Plain Sight carry in a vehicle.. or proper storage, etc.. theres a lot of little snags that can make a criminal out of a good guy if he's not aware of it. I think they need to re-define the training requirements a little so the legal aspect is part of the defined course.

just my humble opinion.



P.S. Desert Lion, one of the Moderators over at the USCCA forums, is a co-host of Shooting from the Hip radioshow / Podcast that is on Saturdays at 2:00. That is where I learned about their ccw training program.
http://sim-trainer.com/radio.shtml

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Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
Post Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:23 pm
Something to consider, too, for anyone who thinks instructors charge a lot for their courses, or worse, thinks instructors are "getting rich" teaching.

First, not every instructor owns a classroom... or a live-fire range. These facilities are usually rented, by the instructor. Whether the owner charges the instructor a flat rate for the facilities, or charges "per student", that's an expense the instructor needs to pay.

Next, in the case of an NRA instructor, teaching a CHL class based on the NRA Basic Pistol course, there are costs associated with the procurement of the NRA Basic Pistol Course "Student Packets", which include the books, the tests, the certificates, and so on. These are up-front costs that the instructor needs to pay for, out of pocket, WEEKS in advance of teaching the course, to insure delivery in time for the scheduled class.

Next, is insurance. The instructors need liability insurance, to cover anything that happens during their classes (for example, should a student shoot themselves, or someone else, during the live-fire portions of the training.) Additionally, the facility's property owner may require the instructor to carry additional liability insurance, as a condition of the lease, to cover any property damage done to the range (students shooting and damaging target carrier trolley systems, shooting out lights, etc.)

Additionally, many instructors will also opt for yet additional coverage (typically called "professional insurance") that covers the instructor himself, "after the fact", should a student later become involved in a shooting or other incident, where the quality of the student's training is called into question, and the courts then turn a skeptical eye toward the instructor, with concerns over "inadequate training."

Lastly, for those instructors who arrange for speakers such as lawyers or police officers, to speak on the legal aspects of CCW as part of a class, consider what an attorney charges the instructor, per hour. At $300 per hour, for a typical attorney, if an instructor contracts a lawyer to speak for 2 hours on Ohio law, you can certainly expect that an instructor will increase the fees charged per student, for the CCW class, to cover that $600 expense. In a class of 20 students, that alone is $30 of the cost, per student.

Just something to consider, when comparing fees charged by instructors. No one is getting rich, teaching classes.

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Ken Cormack
Defense Training International, Affiliated Instructor
NRA Life Member
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol, Reloading, PPITH, PPOTH, HFS, RTBAV Instructor
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm
Posts: 59
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