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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:02 pm
youngliberty wrote:
Ok, for those just skimming through I want you to notice that they do not try to rebuttal against my information. It is all about trying to convince you that youngliberty is wacky, an idiot, a socialist, what have you. This is what we get across the board and that is the psy-ops they try to play. I will try to steer the thread in the information direction again and re-post the abstract. http://www.biolsci.org/v05p0706.htm.


I must be really curious today.

Is your goal to simply have companies label foods as genetic modified or to end the production of genetic modified foods?
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:05 pm
My goal is simply to have a label on a box so the customer knows what he/she is eating.

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -J. Edgar Hoover
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:12 pm
youngliberty wrote:
My goal is simply to have a label on a box.


hmm that doesnt sound so crazy. Why is everyone getting their panties in a bunch? How do you go from food labels to being a wacky nut job socialist? YL stick to what you believe in, dont let anyone discourage you. I hope my earlier comment about pigs flying was seen as a joke. :mrgreen:
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:50 pm
AaronM wrote:
youngliberty wrote:
My goal is simply to have a label on a box.


hmm that doesnt sound so crazy. Why is everyone getting their panties in a bunch? How do you go from food labels to being a wacky nut job socialist? YL stick to what you believe in, dont let anyone discourage you. I hope my earlier comment about pigs flying was seen as a joke. :mrgreen:


Well the stated goal is to do away with GMO plants, and somehow a company like Monsanto is seen as "evil" for creating a product to address a market. Doing your best to eliminate a HUGE portion of current farm production, and force the whole industry to bend to the will of just a few wild eyed folks is not child's play.

I still do not see why a label that says "organic non GMO" is not perfectly fine to let folks who feel strongly about that buy those products ??

Bill

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:30 pm
I don't think you understand willbird. My goal is not to create a purely organic food market as you suggest. All I want is a label on a box that says "Contains genetically engineered ingredients" or something to that effect and let the customer decide if he/she wants to ingest a plant that was engineered with genes to burst the abdomen of an insect. If GMO's and or Monsanto fall due to a label I am not going to cry a river, but as you said, they probably have a plan B.

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -J. Edgar Hoover
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:18 pm
To understand exactly what we are dealing with here, you must realize Monsanto committed a felony while sending mail-ins to county residents. The FDA refutes ever giving a position on the issue because it is illegal for them to do so. So that means Monsanto fabricated the quote and support by the FDA in this ad out of thin air. Government impersonation is highly illegal.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/prop37/pages/48/attachments/original/1350493336/NO_flyer.pdf?1350493336

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -J. Edgar Hoover
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:16 pm
youngliberty wrote:
I don't think you understand willbird. My goal is not to create a purely organic food market as you suggest. All I want is a label on a box that says "Contains genetically engineered ingredients" or something to that effect and let the customer decide if he/she wants to ingest a plant that was engineered with genes to burst the abdomen of an insect. If GMO's and or Monsanto fall due to a label I am not going to cry a river, but as you said, they probably have a plan B.



I'm just not buying all the anti Monstanto hype. But bottom line, this did not even pass in Cali, so you have a generation or so to wait.

And in a general way, this whole anti GMO campaign, and the tactics being used are from the eco-left, and a quick look at the OTHER stuff these folks have on their agenda is purely frightening, so this cause is like all the others suspect.

The BT is just the latest of the GMO stuff, and IMHO it may be a very GOOD one if there is no imact on animals (including humans) who eat these products, and Monstanto has apparently gotten govt approval. The OTHER very popular GMO product the eco-left is at war against is roundup resistant crops, and the BT angle is a way around using broadcast sprayed roundup.

But if anything I would ask people to really learn just a little about agriculture, and have an honest understanding about what the impact is if you were to ban all GMO derived crops tomorrow. Farmers simply do not have the equipment needed for intensive cultivation which is the only other weed control avail in modern farming.

One farmer who specializes in organic non gmo grains uses a John Deer 4020 with both a rear field cultivator and the mid mounted one too, well there is no way TWO humans can farm 800 acres that way, and 2-3 humans per 800 acres is about the ratio that is used these days, intensive cultivation is also very weather sensitive as to timing, some years it is so wet there is NO way you could even get out in the field when you need to.

I see people post things (not just on this board) that they feel there is some "sin" in a company developing a hybrid (could be by old school cross and recross) and then owning rights to it for a period of years....I do not know if you have seen fields where the WORK of this is done, but acres and acres, hand pollinated....tons of labor involved. The end product is deserving of patent protection like any other thing of that nature.

But BT itself has been around a long time. At the low dose of LD50 rats were fed the equiv dose to a 150 lb human eating ten POUNDS of the stuff, the high end of the LD50 would be twenty POUNDS. Rats, Mice, and Dogs were fed the equiv of a pound and a half (23 oz) single doses for a 150lb human with no ill effects.



Quote:
TOXICOLOGICAL EFFECTS

ACUTE TOXICITY

No complaints were made after eighteen humans ate one gram (g) of commercial B.t. preparation daily for five days, on alternate days. Some inhaled 100 milligrams (mg) of the powder daily, in addition to the dietary dosage (6). Humans who ate one g/day of B.t.k. for three consecutive days were not poisoned or infected
Since it was one of the first biological control agents registered for use against insects in the U.S., B.t. had to undergo a testing program which was more thorough than that which the EPA currently requires for biological pesticides. As a result, there are no data gaps in the toxicity information required by the EPA for registration purposes. A wide range of studies have been conducted on test animals, using several routes of exposure. (The highest dose tested was 6.7 x 10 to the 11th spores per animal.) The results of these tests suggest that the use of B.t. products can cause few, if any, negative effects. B.t. did not have acute toxicity in other tests conducted on birds, dogs, guinea pigs, mice, rats, humans, or other animals. When rats were injected with B.t.k., no toxic or virus- like effects were seen. No oral toxicity was found in rats, mice or Japanese quail fed protein crystals from B.t. var. israelensis

Very slight irritation was observed in test animals from inhalation and dermal exposure. This may have been caused by the physical rather than the biological properties of the B.t. formulation tested Mice survived one or more 1-hour periods of breathing mist that contained as many as 6.0 x 10 to the 10th spores of B.t. per cubic meter (m3) No toxic effects were observed in rats that had a B.t. formulation put directly into their lungs, at rates of 5 mg/kg of body weight (1).

The amount of formulated insecticide that killed 50% of the rats experimentally fed the material ranges from 2.65 to greater than five grams per kilogram (g/kg) (1, 12). This amount is referred to as the lethal dose fifty (LD50) for B.t. in rats. Single oral dosages of up to 10,000 milligram per kilogram (mg/kg) of body weight did not produce toxicity in mice, rats or dogs

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:21 pm
And here is the end result.


Quote:
We Americans love sweet corn – our uniquely national vegetable. We consume ~9 lbs of sweet corn per person per year (see how that compares to other vegetables in the graph above). The farmers that grow this crop for us do so on a much more local basis than for most fruit or vegetable crops. There are significant sweet corn acres in 24 states and a total of >260,000 acres nation-wide for the fresh market and >300,000 for canned and frozen corn (see graph below). Sweet corn can be difficult to grow for many reasons, and is often sprayed with insecticides. A biotech solution to this problem exists, but it is under-utilized, in part, due to campaigns by anti-GMO activists. In the end, the people most hurt by this are the American sweet corn growers.



Quote:
The Biotech Solution That Has Been Little Used

Back in 1999, the ag technology company Syngenta began to offer a biotech, insect resistant option for sweet corn – corn that makes its own Bt protein. This protein is a natural, highly selective pesticide for the control of caterpillars (a protein that has been used on organic and conventional crops for >50 years.) This attracted very little public attention. Some of this Bt corn has been used in the Eastern US roadside market, but even though many growers would have loved to plant this corn, there were subtle messages from retailers discouraging them from doing so.

Late last year, another biotech sweet corn option from Monsanto was approved by regulators. This unleashed a predictable firestorm of anti-GMO activity. Even after 16 years of commercial biotechnology planting without health effects, and an impressive collection of independent safety data, the automatic opposition to the technology continued without a thought about how it affects the farmer. Anti-GMO activists put pressure on retailers knowing that their need for brand protection will easily trump any concern for the farmers – in spite of pledges for local sourcing. Certain chains immediately took the easy course and said they would not purchase biotech sweet corn. Walmart has now become the main focus of the anti-GMO sweet corn effort.


Quote:
Sweet Corn is Still Corn

People worry unnecessarily about “genetic contamination,” from GMO crops, but the truth is that plants (like animals) can only make genetic crosses with extremely closely related organisms. Sweet corn is still the same species as field corn, so the companies that went through all the expense to generate and register GMO field corn lines were able to “back-cross” those traits into sweet corn at a practical cost. That is really the only reason that such a relatively minor crop ever became a candidate for biotechnology improvements.

That artifact should have been a great boon to sweet corn farmers, but the most likely scenario is that “food movement activists” who think they are battling with corporations are actually just denying mostly small-scale, local farmers a way to make their job easier. They are trying to enlist you, the consumer in that effort. Whose side will you choose? The farmers or the activists? Will you even get the option to “vote” or will activists simply prevail again?




The alternative (and it would get your non GMO label)
Quote:
In Florida (a huge sweet corn state) the pesticide use is huge. When down in the sweet corn areas of the state yellow spray planes fly from the field to the airport, back and forth, each time bringing broad-spectrum insecticides into the environment. Tons. Scientists and sweetcorn breeders absolutely recognize how Bt sweetcorn would be of huge benefit to farmers and the environment.

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:29 pm
The anti GMO loons speak.


Quote:
” Once these had been bred into the, now “heirloom” varieties like “Illini Extrasweet,” the commercial sweet corn business grew significantly (see graph below).”

Hybrids are never heirlooms. That’s how the definitions work. They are mutually exclusive.


Many hybrids are a controlled cross/recross of old heirloom varieties. That is why many hybrid seed does not breed true, many hybrid tomato's will create cherry tomato second generation volunteers.

Quote:
“I’ve read dozens of missives on this subject from anti-GMO groups and not one has ever even broached the idea of how the technology could benefit exactly the sort of seasonal, small scale, local farmers they claim to support. ”

You can’t save the seed, legally or practically speaking. This isn’t farming, it’s modern sharecropping.


Here we see the ignorant assertions that there is some kind of "right" to save seed as opposed to buying more hybrid seed next year....


And here below is another healthy slice of ignorance, this fella is totally clueless, but he desires to totally change an industry he plainly knows NOTHING about.

Quote:
“As popular as sweet corn is, growing this crop is extremely challenging for the farmer. ”

I grew corn last year. It was very easy. This year I’m going to grow a lot more. It’s not a challenging crop. Mine got 12-13 feet high.

“There are lots of pests that love corn as much as we do – particularly the caterpillars (see picture below.) Farmers must spray the crop over and over again in order to deliver undamaged ears. At best a grower might need to make ~4 insecticide sprays/season. In some areas it can require 20 or more!”

Yes, if you want unnaturally perfect looking corn you have to do unnatural things to get that. I sprayed zero times and far less than one percent of my ears have any bugs.

“For the farmer, however, the pesticide applications are a major headache, cost, and source of soil compaction because of the tractor trips. ”

If it’s difficult you are doing it wrong.

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:46 pm
Now if only we could require a special permit to fart on the elevator ... id be real happy. I swear to God the last time I got on one a nice old lady looked so innocent, i just knew though. Honest to my ancestors it smelled like death and I gagged a little. She looked way to happy just riding the elevator.

We'll know when we are the right track when people have to lable their flatulants.
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:41 pm
1. The only information you have reflecting the influence of the crops have on mammals is a 5 day test trial like I predicted.

My rebuttal

Quote:
If a “sign of toxicity” may only provoke a reaction, pathology or a poisoning, a so-called “toxic effect” is without doubt deleterious on a short or a long term. Clearly, the statistically significant effects observed here for all three GM maize varieties investigated are signs of toxicity rather than proofs of toxicity, and this is essentially for three reasons. Firstly, the feeding trials in each case have been conducted only once, and with only one mammalian species. The experiments clearly need to be repeated preferably with more than one species of animal. Secondly, the length of feeding was at most only three months, and thus only relatively acute and medium-term effects can be observed if any similar to what can be derived in a process such as carcinogenesis [19, 20] or after endocrine disruption in adults [21]. Proof of toxicity is hard to decide on the basis of these conditions. Longer-term (up to 2 years) feeding experiments are clearly justified and indeed necessary. This requirement is supported by the fact that cancer, nervous and immune system diseases, and even reproductive disorders for examples can become apparent only after one or two years of a given intervention treatment under investigation, but they will not be evident in all cases after three months of administration when first signs of toxicity may be observed [22, 23]. In addition, large effects (e.g. 40% increase in triglycerides) in all likelihood will be missed with the protocol of the current studies, since they are limited by the number of animals used in each feeding group and by the nature of the parameters studied. Thirdly, the statistical power of the tests conducted is low (30%) because the experimental design of Monsanto (see Materials and Methods). However, it is important to note that these short-term (3-month) rat feeding trials are the only tests conducted on the basis of which regulators determine whether these GM crop/food varieties are as safe to eat as conventional types. Given that these GM crops are potentially eaten by billions of people and animals world-wide, it is important to discuss whether the experimental design, the statistical analyses and interpretations originally undertaken are appropriate and sufficient.


Quote:
It is not possible to make comments concerning any general, similar subchronic toxic effect for all GM foods. However, in the three GM maize varieties that formed the basis of this investigation, new side effects linked to the consumption of these cereals were revealed, which were sex- and often dose-dependent. Effects were mostly concentrated in kidney and liver function, the two major diet detoxification organs, but in detail differed with each GM type. In addition, some effects on heart, adrenal, spleen and blood cells were also frequently noted. As there normally exists sex differences in liver and kidney metabolism, the highly statistically significant disturbances in the function of these organs, seen between male and female rats, cannot be dismissed as biologically insignificant as has been proposed by others [4]. We therefore conclude that our data strongly suggests that these GM maize varieties induce a state of hepatorenal toxicity. This can be due to the new pesticides (herbicide or insecticide) present specifically in each type of GM maize, although unintended metabolic effects due to the mutagenic properties of the GM transformation process cannot be excluded [42]. All three GM maize varieties contain a distinctly different pesticide residue associated with their particular GM event (glyphosate and AMPA in NK 603, modified Cry1Ab in MON 810, modified Cry3Bb1 in MON 863). These substances have never before been an integral part of the human or animal diet and therefore their health consequences for those who consume them, especially over long time periods are currently unknown. Furthermore, any side effect linked to the GM event will be unique in each case as the site of transgene insertion and the spectrum of genome wide mutations will differ between the three modified maize types. In conclusion, our data presented here strongly recommend that additional long-term (up to 2 years) animal feeding studies be performed in at least three species, preferably also multi-generational, to provide true scientifically valid data on the acute and chronic toxic effects of GM crops, feed and foods. Our analysis highlights that the kidneys and liver as particularly important on which to focus such research as there was a clear negative impact on the function of these organs in rats consuming GM maize varieties for just 90 days.


2. The BT you suggest is natural in the GM crops are not indeed natural and kills "non-targets".

Quote:
This study indicates that Bt toxins are not inert on human cells, and may indeed be toxic. As Bt toxins are produced by bacterial species existing naturally in the wild, and are used for organic agriculture, inadequate safety assessments were involved in the approval of Bt crops. Bacterial spores used in organic spraying could be washed away, but the Bt proteins are part and parcel of the GM crops. Furthermore, the Bt proteins in GM crops have been modified from those naturally produced, and the effects of these modification have not been addressed.


Quote:
Swiss researchers of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) in Zürich confirm earlier findings that the Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) toxin Cry1Ab produced for pesticidal purposes by genetically modified (GM) Bt maize increases mortality in the young ladybird larvae (Adalia bipunctata L., two-spotted ladybird) in laboratory tests. These ladybird larvae are typical 'non-target' environmental goods which are not supposed to be harmed by the GM maize

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:53 pm
3. You have quotes from biotech engineers who have worked for the biotech companies, raving about how great their research has made life, I can find you hundreds of quotes from farmers whose livestock were killed from GM feed.

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:09 pm
I just kind of skimmed through this, but...

There is crazy chemicals in everything we eat, drink and buy. Why not just grow and produce your own food? Stickers, labels, bans and restrictions are not really helpful if people don't care. You get stickers on food packages, okay, then what? How many people pick up a pack of cigarettes, read the label, then change their mind and put it back?

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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:01 pm
I could take a stance on GMO bans, in fact a county in Washington State has already done so, but I prefer to let the market decide where to go with that. Fact of the matter is most people do not even know what a GMO food really is, but if the box said GMO on it they would turn away from it. Personally, I look at the nutrional label everytime I pick up a food. The popularity of local farm markets exist on the basis of homegrown, quality foods which are most of the time not GMO, but are also non-organic.

I have sworn up the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -J. Edgar Hoover
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Post subject: Re: Another warning sign
Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:13 am
youngliberty wrote:
I could take a stance on GMO bans, in fact a county in Washington State has already done so, but I prefer to let the market decide where to go with that. Fact of the matter is most people do not even know what a GMO food really is, but if the box said GMO on it they would turn away from it. Personally, I look at the nutrional label everytime I pick up a food. The popularity of local farm markets exist on the basis of homegrown, quality foods which are most of the time not GMO, but are also non-organic.


So you think it is a GOOD that people would avoid a product because it said it had ingredients that were GMO ?? So ignorance is a tool now ??

And honestly, I have been to farmers markets here locally, OH and IN both, nobody had any labels on things about what variety they were, let alone whether they were GMO.

And wow, a COUNTY in Washington state has banned GROWING GMO crops ?? I'm curious exactly how they will enforce that ;-).

Quote:
The measure comes with some teeth as well: Violators can be charged with the crime of being a public nuisance and fined for the first offense; second violations will be considered misdemeanors with a third violation a "gross misdemeanor," local Fox affiliate q13fox.com reported.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/037943_GMO_W ... z2CD62Wzhn



Bill

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