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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:36 pm
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(PLEASE, can I change that name? :D)

I can't get excited about traffic cameras or surveillance drones (or cameras), but if they're not shooting at us, they can have some uses. It's when they DO shoot at us that I really get bothered. (I'd be the guy firing back :D.)

Becka got nailed by a traffic camera - right turn on yellow a little too late for the camera :) - in El Paso about a year ago. I had to watch the tape about ten times (the sent us a link with the bill) to be sure she'd actually violated the law, though. Seemed like the light never turned red (it did, but the color rendition of the "setup" - no idea where the fault was - was a little wrong), and other traffic sort of hid it. I'd sure like to know who/what decided what they had there. Sent 'em a picture of Sammy and they ran back across the border....

The real mess for everybody here is that the BG is very well (much too well?) trained in all of this - as I mentioned earlier, like the guy who's "the only one qualified to shoot himself in the leg", and the LAPD or whoever takes him down will be very lucky to do so. To some extent, this is why some parts of the government fear us - skills (and equipment) in excess of what the rank & file have.

(A buddy of mine used to lend long guns to a local PD when they had a need. He was a retired LEO, and really knew what was what, but....)

So, yes, the PD has the responsibility to STOP this guy, by whatever means possible, but it doesn't extend to endangering the lives of innocent citizens in so far as is possible.

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:15 pm
Obama better watch what he wishes for,He's a citizen,too,or so he says.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:18 pm
What I meant by the advantage of numbers being not such a significant factor, is the kind of numbers we're blessed with today. Our society is severely brainwashed, and I'm willing to bet most of them don't realize the shock and awe the US military is capable of demonstrating upon a couple thousand people with sticks.
I was raised, not just born. I was brought up in a school system that still implemented corporal punishment. If you dropped me in the middle of a field, I could find my way home. Now I've got a decade (or two if I'm really good to my body) where I can physically be of value in a shtf situation, and it really makes me frustrated and angry when I see our youth dependent on electricity, spell check, and google maps.

Yep, I'd like to think the defenders of our Constitution would split and rally us civilians too.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:46 am
Simply, just gives us another reason for those that have them to hold on for dear life to those firearms whatever they may be.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:39 pm
SMMAssociates wrote:
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(PLEASE, can I change that name? :D)

I can't get excited about traffic cameras or surveillance drones (or cameras), but if they're not shooting at us, they can have some uses. It's when they DO shoot at us that I really get bothered. (I'd be the guy firing back :D.)


The problem with this position is that, when encountering remote force multipliers like drones, you don't get to shoot back. That is, unless you have access to the driver's facilities or personal information. It is too much unchecked power, too difficult to detect when it is being abused, too permissibly allowed under current caselaw, and far, far, far, too easily convertible for use beyond your 'flying speed traps' which, incidentally, I find no less troublesome and violative.

...

Quote:
The real mess for everybody here is that the BG is very well (much too well?) trained in all of this - as I mentioned earlier, like the guy who's "the only one qualified to shoot himself in the leg", and the LAPD or whoever takes him down will be very lucky to do so. To some extent, this is why some parts of the government fear us - skills (and equipment) in excess of what the rank & file have.


This is just a load of baloney that the LAPD and other political police forces put out there. There are 10,000 LAPD officers. They are not operators, they are not specialists, they are closer in training to postal workers (no offense to postal workers). My point is that what differentiates today's police departments more than anything else from departments of the past, is the training they receive that they are above, better, superior, and better equipped to judge and deal with a situation than those they refer to as 'civilians.' Problem is, every single police officer, when acting in that capacity is a ... you guessed it, civilian. The only exception to that rule is a military police officer. This paramilitarization is dangerous because it leads to ...

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So, yes, the PD has the responsibility to STOP this guy, by whatever means possible, but it doesn't extend to endangering the lives of innocent citizens in so far as is possible.


... the attitude that along with the responsibility to stop an offender includes 'by any means possible' and implies that endangering the lives of 'innocent citizens' is justified. This is not the case, at least inasmuch as the LAPD has practiced it. That is, just because an officer has received a credible threat does not mean that he is entitled to seek out and kill the threatener. I cannot do that if I receive a credible threat, and I (and you) have each, every, and all the same rights to kill someone as an officer of the law. Simply put, the police never have the right to stop a criminal 'by any means possible.' Sometimes they have the right to stop them 'by any means necessary.'

Today we saw the result of that attitude. An American citizen (a bad, murderous, evil American citizen) was put on a kill list by the LAPD, and they made no - zero - efforts to wait him out. They just burned him alive.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc&feature=youtu.be

Listen to it yourself.


[ETA: While we have equal rights to take human life, officers enjoy vast, expansive rights that non-officers do not in the use of non-lethal force within the force continuum to gain compliance. It is only in the last step - the taking of a human life - that the officer and non-officer enjoy identical legal status. I wanted to clarify that before people go out tazing, macing, clubbing, punching, handcuffing, knee-knocking, dog-sicking, or other police-only compliance acts thinking that the police and non-police are the same in every respect.]

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:31 pm
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I thought about Viking's response on this thread when reading about the LAPD's gratuitous shooting of any civilian in a blue truck this past week, and the deployment of drones and sophisticated military tactics and equipment to kill a person accused of violating state law.

Now, I'm no fan of cop-killing lunatics, but that does not give a government agency the right to shoot someone on sight. We have trial by jury in this country. What is happening here, though, is assassination of a US citizen in the US. The shoot on sight rules are why 70 year old ladies are getting ventilated.

You can trust oaths all you want, but those LAPD officers swore the same oath. When the brotherhood is threatened that oath crap often goes out with the trash. The constitution doesn't allow you to drone search through everyone's private property or to shoot old ladies 'just in case.'

...i tend to agree, ...way too much "swarm" mentality, ...also a similar example in cleveland when the cops there shot two unarmed subjects who were fleeing in a car, ..cops thought they were fired upon (...later thought to be a car backfiring), ...anyway, ...heard the other day that as many as 60 units were responding to the "chase"... 60 units!!??!!

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:56 pm
To me - there are factors deeper rooted & more socially complex than a 'mere' conspiracy - this event just seems to illuminate the gestapo mindset of many in big city police departments. I'm talking about "us verses them" mentality rather than "protect and serve." Certainly, the LAPD has had it's share of seemingly fascist incidents in the past. At a bare minimum, any LE organization the size of LAPD is going to have some corruption & abuses of power. Just think of how different the mindset of a person who lives in LA, Chicago, or NY. They just don't think like most of us, they think the rest of the country "owes them" just for existing. And many are probably seemingly deserving of contempt by the police there. I think of people in cities like LA, or NY as "them." I don't think they are anything like me --- It doesn't mean that I have a right to do anything to them - they can live however they want as long as it doesn't infringe upon my rights. However, I am not naive enough to deny that many of them think they have a right to do things to me (like take my liberties and redistribute my money.) Take all of this as a context for the mind set of LAPD, at the point where their "tribe" is threatened by a "banished member" some "tribal members" will seek to utilize or abuse their powers of law enforcement for vengence. While I don't think it is moral behavior consistent with their oath of office, I do however think it is rational human behavior, and that is what should scare us. Just like conflicts that persist, because each side has a rational , yet emotional reason to fight (Palestine/Israel.)

I'll tell you another big difference between the military and local LE --- the military isn't unionized.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:28 am
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I'm going to change your name to "UserName" :D.... Or something equally uncouth....

Overall, we don't disagree, except that maybe this guy was that good....

I'm not happy with "let him fry", either, but it may have been the safest solution - to let somebody who's bound and determined to do "Suicide by cop" get his wish rather than lose other innocent lives.

However the tribe thing does get into the act, and LE is a fraternity of source. Large PD's, in particular, have a tribal element where the members don't talk to anybody else outside of Police interactions of the type where we talk about notification....

There's also a "neat guy" thing here - the special outfits and vehicles, for example. Kind of reminds me of the Civil War units, early in the war, that decided to be Zouaves due to the French forces of that name. Red "Arab-style" outfits, etc. Thinking about it, that got changed, but not until the uniforms got pretty torn up :D....

Generally, too, LEO's who interact with non-LEO's outside of "Police Contact", are always on the lookout for people who want something from them, now or in the future. There's a whole mindset that says "don't accept even free coffee" because you may have to cite the owner for speed or something, or ticket illegal parking in front of his store.

(What the guys who feel that way about restaurants, for example, is that free refills are good :D, and an opportunity to make an "office" out of a table or booth for a few minutes to catch up on a report is nice, as is a bathroom that allows for the safe removal & stowage of "equipment" while answering nature's call. As you guys know - Lord knows I tell you often enough :D - I was in the field as a rent-a-cop for long time, many years ago. Doing mobile patrol is a genuine "been there, done that", although it's usually safer. Kind of funny, too - my "wannabemobile" was often better equipped than the local PD's units. I had a phone when they were rare, for example.)

It definitely has turned into an "us v.s. them" in major cities, and the mindset of those cities non-LEO's is more than a little unusual than we're used to. Local LE in small towns, OTOH doesn't necessarily follow that, although "prey on the travelers" isn't unusual.

Even Cleveland, many years ago.... A buddy of mine wandered into the Cleveland PD Range one day, and was invited to come back and "shoot with us"! 40+ years ago. I doubt if that'd happen today, but who knows. In those days, I was a regular at the Liberty Township (Trumbull County) range. A buddy was a part-timer there, and he set it up. I was a rental at the time, so it wasn't too far out of the "family", but still unusual.

(Some LEO's absolutely hate rentals and "Security" folks. The rules, in some areas, leave a lot of poor standards. I "met" a guy on the old CompuServe POLICE forum who admitted it, and then added that I was the first Security Officer type he'd ever run into that was a professional and not some guy with a T-Shirt and a big head.)

Podunk PD doesn't really need a SWAT team, for example, but it's also wise to have access to some of the capabilities - long guns and guys skilled with them, etc. Hard to strike a balance, though.

Hm.... "I Am Now A Lawyer"? Nah.... :mrgreen:

Regards,

Stu

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