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Post subject: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:55 pm
Hey all,
First post on here really, aside from my introduction in new members.

I am generally libertarian leaning in my political views. That being said, I do not subscribe to Alex Jones and most of the conspiracy theories out there. However, I have come across a few of these the past few days and they are alarming to me. First was the report written by someone out of west point in which he describes second amendment federalist being terrorist, (even lumping us in with skinheads). The report goes on to outline scenarios in which the US military would fire on American civilians.
http://publicintelligence.net/ctc-viole ... o.facebook

Then I saw this just today. It is from a well respected author who has won a Nobel peace prize for his work in saving children in China under there "one child" policy.
http://www.examiner.com/article/renowne ... s-citizens

He claims a top brass military hero told him this story and that this administration is weeding out military personnel that would not be willing to fire upon American civilians. I also understand this is akin to a similar litmus test survey that asked this question back in 1994 under the 29 Psalms survey.

Anyways, thought this was very interesting and thought it would be a good topic. I'm always leery of those not willing to give their sources, but his credentials are valid.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:20 pm
They are trying to label us extremist, terrorist.


The other side is far superior to us when it comes to labels, often they control the conversation and we're left playing defense.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:31 am
noquarter:

I saw that "willing to fire on American Citizens" thing someplace else, too. Can't remember where....

Way too many people vote who shouldn't be trusted with sharp pencils....

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:37 am
I've searched but can't find the web page... seems the national guard did fire upon civilians during the West Virgina coal mine wars with machine guns and dropped different types of bombs on the miners and their families...

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:01 am
There was the Ludlow Massacre in Colorado.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
Quote:
The Ludlow Massacre was an attack by the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel & Iron Company camp guards on a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado on April 20, 1914.

The massacre resulted in the violent deaths of between 19 and 25 people; sources vary but all sources include two women and eleven children, asphyxiated and burned to death under a single tent.


And of course, the Kent State shootings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Quote:
...involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:15 am
Wounded Knee in 1973.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:45 am
Moved to tinfoil hat section - Mod.

I'll say again what I originally posted when this was posted earlier this week:

Viking wrote:
Gen. Mattis is getting the boot because he was an independent thinker who wanted to have a coherant strategy to deal with a rougue state in his AOR. Senior WH officials didn't like him insisting that they listen to his professional military advice including 5 years as a Four-star COCOM commander:

http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... e_response


I think tieing this event to some sort of notion that General Officers are being screened for their ability to fire on US Citizens is definately a stretch. Senior Officers have spent a lifetime serving their countries and have sworn to "support and defend the US Constitution," everytime they are appointed & promoted. As a class, they are some of the most patriotic and dedicated public servants in the country --- that's probably why politicians in the WH don't like them or are insecure in dealing with them.



A few isolated examples (or exceptions) from history don't necessarilly make a trend. Under-trained, scared & poorly led OH Guard troops with no riot-training firing on hippies is not enough to convince me that there is a trend here. I don't think the modern, disciplined professional military is anywhere near comparable to the National guard units of the past that perpetrated these tragic events in American history. I'd say false causation, based on my experience a a professional military officer, the author hasn't been through the professional military leadership training I have been, therefore he is making guesses about the mindset of the modern professional officer. The modern officer is almost a fanatic about the constitution, and wanting to be the next Bull Halsey or Patton - defending his country. He also has a mindset, that bad guys exist to be taken-out on deployment to CENTCOM, and that CONUS is for desk jobs at the pentagon (too be avoided, if possible!) and training his troops to be an effective combat unit for the next deployment to the sandbox.

I'll caviate this with my real concern for events like Waco, Ruby Ridge, and fast & furious. I think there are elements of the federal LEO community who do have a gestapo mindset. (I have met a few who scare me) But that is just my opinion as an outside observer --- I haven't done any real research to back the claim.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:18 pm
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The modern officer is almost a fanatic about the constitution, and wanting to be the next Bull Halsey or Patton - defending his country. He also has a mindset, that bad guys exist to be taken-out on deployment to CENTCOM, and that CONUS is for desk jobs at the pentagon (too be avoided, if possible!) and training his troops to be an effective combat unit for the next deployment to the sandbox.


What worries me, is that those who do not go along with the liberals are being painted and labeled as "extremists" and "terrorists". So taking on those people who insist on the Constitution will not appear to be taking on decent Americans, but rather odd-ball extremists and doing so would be exactly the "defending his country" that you mention.

Remember the 5 year old girl last week who said she was going to shoot soap bubbles at her friend was initially charged with "terroristic threatening". Isn't that something that a terrorist does? I don't think the choice of words is accidental.

Let's face it, every time I see someone on these boards say they will never give up their guns, I can see the wheels turning at Homeland Security. If one refuses to obey the law (even if unconstitutional) one becomes a "criminal" and a "terrorist".

We only know what we do about Ruby Ridge because Randy Weaver managed to survive. I imagine that Fatherland Security has learned from the mistakes made by the federal forces.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:37 pm
Personally, I don't think there is any conspiracy to fire upon Americans 'en masse' at this point. At the same time, I'm reluctant to say that it could never happen, because it actually has happened, on several occasions throughout US history.
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:14 pm
Hey all,

I just thought it was interesting. This hole research came about on Thursday night when I was watching the news. They have this guy on there once in awhile called Mark Hyman who does a 5 minute report called behind the headlines. The day after I see this, I then see the report released by Dr. Garrows that talks about the high ranking general I speak to above. It really got me to thinking that while far fetched, would it really be that out there to think this president who wants to take away our guns forsee a possible scenario where we refuse to and hence a civil riot forms? Its kind of scary..

http://behindtheheadlines.net/sections/ ... _149.shtml
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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:03 pm
The thinking of a liberal (if that is what you want to call it) has from my experience with them, boiled down to very simply: as long as it can be argued to be legal, ethical, and moral, . . . then whatever means is employed is OK as long as the desired end result is obtained.

It doesn't have TO BE legal, ethical or moral, . . . but by the time the courts figure it out, . . . they'll be on another band wagon.

Kent State, Waco, Ruby Ridge, POTUS election 2008, POTUS election 2012, stimulus, Obamacare, gun control, . . . take your pick, . . . they all fall under this same line of thinking.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:47 pm
After some long careful thought, my opinion is that should anything happen, the US military would undergo a very heavy serious moral shakedown resulting in casualties and flight; and civilians will be heavily reliant upon factions of those now ex-military who have deemed themselves in the moral majority. The only advantage civilians have (and this is not a serious advantage) is numbers. Of course I'm really going overboard here in the worst-case scenario.

The results of tyranny, given all the possibilities, are way too complicated to predict.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:40 pm
RogerD wrote:
The only advantage civilians have (and this is not a serious advantage) is numbers.

Rly? many conflicts are won by superior numbers with inferior everything else..

I think you under estimate the advantage numbers brings.

With that said I would like to think some of the military would split and defend the constitution.
Hopefully we never have to find out for sure.

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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:06 am
Joe Sixpack wrote:
RogerD wrote:
The only advantage civilians have (and this is not a serious advantage) is numbers.

Rly? many conflicts are won by superior numbers with inferior everything else..

I think you under estimate the advantage numbers brings.

With that said I would like to think some of the military would split and defend the constitution.
Hopefully we never have to find out for sure.



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Post subject: Re: I find this disturbing
Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:14 pm
I thought about Viking's response on this thread when reading about the LAPD's gratuitous shooting of any civilian in a blue truck this past week, and the deployment of drones and sophisticated military tactics and equipment to kill a person accused of violating state law.

Now, I'm no fan of cop-killing lunatics, but that does not give a government agency the right to shoot someone on sight. We have trial by jury in this country. What is happening here, though, is assassination of a US citizen in the US. The shoot on sight rules are why 70 year old ladies are getting ventilated.

You can trust oaths all you want, but those LAPD officers swore the same oath. When the brotherhood is threatened that oath crap often goes out with the trash. The constitution doesn't allow you to drone search through everyone's private property or to shoot old ladies 'just in case.'

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