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Post subject: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:27 pm
just read


The company’s website offers a line of “No More Hesitation” targets ”designed to give officers the experience of dealing with deadly force shooting scenarios with subjects that are not the norm during training.” The targets are, “meant to help the transition for officers who are faced with these highly unusual targets for the first time.”


http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/d ... 3#comments

We can rebuild him, we can make him stronger, we can make him faster, we can make him politically correct..NOT !!!

"Criminals obey "gun control" laws in the same manner politicians follow their oaths of office."
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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:50 pm
Disgusting.

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:02 pm
Even in civilian training classes, there's a role for targets like these.

It makes the shooter actually *think* before they shoot, and when worked into scenarios, can really amp up the stress level.

The first time I saw a "non-traditional target" like these, I was completely thrown for a loop. It required a healthy "mind smack" from the instructor to get me back on-task: to truly assess the situation and solve the problem.

Politically and socially, yes, we can say this or that.

But strictly as a training tool, there is value. Even for a law-abiding citizen.

It's not like women ever kill, right? Snapped? And it's not like kids never kill, right? It's about getting the shooter to think and react in an appropriate manner.

Sure, some of those targets can be "hostile," but the scenario can also just as easily be that the granny with the revolver or grandpa with the double-barrel is defending against home-invaders, or that the teenage sister grabbed daddy's gun to defend her and her little sister against an armed aggressor. It's easy, in front of the computer, to only think of the tinfoil hat applications :P , but even when you've been given the above scenario by the instructor, when you're pumped up on adrenalin and fear and you round that corner of the shoot-house and see that gun pointed at you, it's well possible that you won't see "the person" behind the gun, and instinctively shoot - in this case, the wrong person.

Just like a gun, these targets are but a tool. It's their use that needs to be put into context.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:49 am
I think that in LA, 'do not hesitate' targets would be in uniform :)

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:11 am
ROFL!

Or driving a dark colored truck. Of any make/model.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:07 pm
TSiWRX wrote:
ROFL!

Or driving a dark colored truck. Of any make/model.


Ok, you win the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:07 pm
^ Double win, YES! :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:26 pm
some knives cut both ways

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:34 pm
I agree they are disgusting, but as police respond to domestic calls where screwed up girl friends having their abusive boy friends hauled off suddenly become hostile or elderly dementia sufferers or any number of nonstandard situations, the desensitization could save their life.

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:45 pm
Actually I am surprised it is not just photos of firearms. We all know it is the guns that kill people.

JLE

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:53 pm
"Desensitization" is one of the purposes of the classic "Hogan's Alley", although the armed little kid might be a tad unusual.

The point is that you need to look for for more than just face/age/appearance/race/hair color, etc. You have to take in the whole picture and make a very quick decision. These targets can help reinforce that, although they may be more appropriate in a "Hogan's Alley" context than what's on the target hangers.

However, if you've got a square range and flippable targets, you can fake an alley adequately to afford one. Toss in some plain paper targets, or pictures of grandma baking cookies and you're set.

BTW, if you can get FATS training, or something similar to that, it's even better. Downside is that it can scare the crap out of you. Buddy of mine almost resigned from his PD after a run through one of those. I think if he'd not already been in a nasty shootout, he would have....

There's a problem, though, in "public perception". Just our response here shows that. People don't want to be reminded that the cute little munchkin next door has a 1911 in her "Hello Kitty" purse....

There's an unpleasant truth here - some things will upset people. Can't be upsetting the Zero supporters, either.... Like that gal who was doing an anti-hunting protest: "Why don't you just get your meat at the supermarket. Nothing gets hurt here." :)

I'm more concerned about DHS buying all that ammunition. Is it a back door way to disarm us (kill ammunition availability), or is Zero trying to turn DHS into the SS?

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:40 pm
SMMAssociates wrote:
BTW, if you can get FATS training, or something similar to that, it's even better. Downside is that it can scare the crap out of you. Buddy of mine almost resigned from his PD after a run through one of those. I think if he'd not already been in a nasty shootout, he would have....


Has anyone here been through the Gander Mountain Academy Simulator?

Quote:
There's a problem, though, in "public perception". Just our response here shows that. People don't want to be reminded that the cute little munchkin next door has a 1911 in her "Hello Kitty" purse....

There's an unpleasant truth here - some things will upset people. Can't be upsetting the Zero supporters, either.... Like that gal who was doing an anti-hunting protest: "Why don't you just get your meat at the supermarket. Nothing gets hurt here." :)


Exactly.

And I'm glad to read in today's issue of Stephen Wenger's DUF Digest the following:

Stephen P Wenger via DUF Digest wrote:
A Personal Comment: One of the latest horror stories making its way around the internet is that DHS has purchased full-color photographic training targets depicting citizens, including at least one of a pregnant woman. Folks, for the whole time that I offered live training in Arizona, I used many of those same targets – purchased from Law Enforcement Targets. In fact, the only time that my students fired on a black-and-white photographic target was for the “qualification” in my Arizona CWP course and that was because LET does not offer acceptable scoring rings on a color target. Those of you who have read through my website or my book know that I rank the mental preparedness to use deadly force – when called for – second only to mental (situational) awareness. Yes, such targets are used for desensitization! A gunfight is not an IPSC or IDPA match and I've yet to see anyone walking around dressed to look like a buff-color cardboard silhouette. I have several dozen leftover LET targets, in several versions, in my garage. There are even a handful of a different one of a pregnant woman. Are you prepared to leave the scene in a body bag because the person trying to kill you is pregnant? Living where I do, I've seen several pregnant tweekers (methamphetamine users) and I have no doubt that they'd shoot you or slit your throat when they get desperate enough for their next dose. While I never got around to using the target with the pregnant woman, I purchased some in the event that I could offer scenario training. Inasmuch as I taught the first shot to the pelvis – if available – at common handgun distances, had I used the pregnant-woman target, it would have been to test the student's ability to shift to a different aiming point. What about a child? I've shared more than one report of children who have stolen firearms with the intent to kill others. If I were a firearms instructor on the US Border Patrol, I'd probably get myself into hot water trying to purchase targets depicting Mexican military personnel. While it seems to be verboten to shoot at them – even when they present a threat on US soil – I'd want to train my troops to risk an “international incident” rather than becoming the next Brian Terry. I'm much more worried about cadets at West Point being taught to view conservative activists as terrorists than I am about some DHS personnel training on realistic targets.


There are very valid, alternative, ways to read this that's far from the sensationalized take of either the craziest of the Tinfoil Hat crowd or that of the liberal media.

Quote:
I'm more concerned about DHS buying all that ammunition. Is it a back door way to disarm us (kill ammunition availability), or is Zero trying to turn DHS into the SS?


I still don't quite buy it.... :P

I made this post in another thread regarding the current ammo craze:

Quote:
Let's take into account just this one scenario: that of a bigger/more rigorous three-day training class. Average round-count for students attending Chris Costa's Costa Ludus 3-day handgun classes last summer was right around 2000 rounds per person. With an average class size of 25 shooters, that's 50,000 rounds, right there. His carbine classes tends to burn through a little more ammo, but given that his pistol classes burns through a little less, we'll just say that's average, per class session.

Discounting his "Night Operations" low-light classes, the "7.62 Heavy" classes and the "Shotgun Employment" classes - there's still 34 classes on his 2013 roster, and that comes out to 1,700,000 rounds.

He's just one such operation. There are many, many more spread all across the US.

And this is not counting, of course, any training sessions that these top-tier trainers all host for our police and military personnel.

"The Government" requesting 750 million rounds? I'm glad someone is actually forcing those who are professionally armed to at least somewhat train: case-in-point? NYPD and their rather abysmal marksmanship performances in the publicized incidents last year.

On the civilian side, there are also competition shooters to factor in as well. I don't compete, but I'm a decently serious hobbyist. Two years ago, my first year shooting, I put around 40K rounds of 9mm downrange. I agree, that's excessive, but this year, I was looking at about 20K of 9mm, but towards the last part of the shooting season, various unforeseen problems arose, leading to a loss of nearly 30 hours of training - and me shorting the 20K count by approximately 5K: I don't consider this round-count to be that out-of-the-ordinary.

My main training pistol has over 30K rounds through her. My secondary training pistol is approaching 10K. I've been shooting since late November, 2010.


OK, that's one "big name" training class - but I can easily name another half-dozen just right of the top of my head, and truth be told, I probably don't really need too much time to think of ten...and that would make for close to 2 million rounds spent, no?

I realize that does sound somewhat extreme. But let's look at local-level courses.

One of the two more popular schools that's physically close to me here in NE-Ohio typically hosts a half-dozen single-day "run-your-gun" type of manipulations classes per year. The intro-level course probably goes through about 500 rounds for the day (~8 hours worth of range-time). This instructor usually has at least one intermediate-tier course per year that will go through upwards of 800 rounds. Let's just push down the average, and say that it's 500 per session. At an average of about 6 to 8 students per class, I think it's decently safe to say that per year, just from this operation alone, you're looking at about 20K rounds from this operation alone. The other school sees higher attendance, and again, in the typically half-dozen single-day classes they offer per year (again, with two tiers of shooters, again averaging 500 rounds per shooter per class), if we do the math (they'll typically have 8 to 12 shooters per class, so let's call it 10?), that's 30K rounds. They also offer year-round 2-hour novice-level classes as well as a few intermediate-level classes sprinkled in - with at least 10 students per class, averaging let's say a very conservative 100 rounds per student per session, at a very conservative estimate of 30 such classes per year, that's easily another 30K rounds. That's a minimum of 80K rounds from just TWO local-level schools.

And these are all regular-Joe civilian, "Open Enrollment" classes. Even the few armed professionals who do attend are doing it from their own dime.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:30 pm
TSiWRX, must you throw reason and logic into the works? This is the tinfoilhat/conspiracy theorists/paranoid posters area! 8)

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:23 pm
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There are very valid, alternative, ways to read this that's far from the sensationalized take of either the craziest of the Tinfoil Hat crowd or that of the liberal media.


Ok we could accept the need for these training tactics as a testament to the degradation of society but the militarization of the LEO and big brother surveillance is enough for me to keep the foil firmly in place. I realize we ain't in Mayberry but I don't want to live on the wrong side of Checkpoint Charlie either.

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Post subject: Re: Defcon 2 ???
Post Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:10 pm
fatbaldguy wrote:
TSiWRX, must you throw reason and logic into the works? This is the tinfoilhat/conspiracy theorists/paranoid posters area! 8)


OK, true, true, I surrender! :P :lol:

petergunn wrote:
Quote:
There are very valid, alternative, ways to read this that's far from the sensationalized take of either the craziest of the Tinfoil Hat crowd or that of the liberal media.


Ok we could accept the need for these training tactics as a testament to the degradation of society but the militarization of the LEO and big brother surveillance is enough for me to keep the foil firmly in place. I realize we ain't in Mayberry but I don't want to live on the wrong side of Checkpoint Charlie either.


^ Hey, I'm not saying that I don't have a (double-layer) tinfoil hat, either...... 8)

-Allen
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