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Be sure to read the stickies on the forum index with respect to the sales, tradiing, etc., of firearms and serialized components, which is generally forbidden. Please read http://forums.buckeyefirearms.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12519 first.
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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:18 am
Frankly I wonder why there is a "trading post" section to start with under those guidelines

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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:12 am
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I hope that we all can understand and appreciate the importance of removing this board from these transaction loops.


I'm confused by it. Is the next item on the BFA's agenda "closing the gun show loophole"?

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:46 am
Joe & Greg:

You can still sell other stuff - holsters, ammunition, targets, etc.

The Trading Post is a convenience for members. However, the BFA management (not me and Dan!) have decided that we cannot be the conduit for any transfer of what amounts to a firearm. (The ATF folks consider a serialized part to be a "firearm"....)

The problem is that in the event of a sting, although we likely would have no real problems, we still might have to spend a pile on defense, and that's the sort of strategy that the anti's tend to like to use. We simply have better places to put those resources. And, there are places to conduct these transfers already around anyway.

Sure, I'd feel better about an FTF with somebody I knew, but....

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:10 am
gmhiggins wrote:
Quote:
I hope that we all can understand and appreciate the importance of removing this board from these transaction loops.


I'm confused by it. Is the next item on the BFA's agenda "closing the gun show loophole"?



The mission of BFA:

Quote:
MISSION: Buckeye Firearms Association is a grassroots political action committee (PAC) dedicated to defending and advancing the right of Ohio citizens to own and use firearms for all legal activities, including self-defense, hunting, competition, and recreation. We work to elect pro-gun candidates and lobby for pro-gun legislation.


Nowhere does it state that the BFA forum or website will facilitate legal transfer of firearms. There are plenty of legitimate business websites that serve this purpose. BFA must use its resources wisely, and fending off a legal issue about the administration of its' website would not be a wise use. Do not be naive about the intent of the anti-gun groups who would love to see BFA & other rights grassroots organizations be strangled by litigation...

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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:50 am
Stu, That's cool that BFA doesn't want gun trades on their board but it seems like it goes well beyond that, no links to other sites, no FFL, basically it's complete black listing of any gun sales regardless if it's origin.

Im not saying I agree or disagree with that philosophy, I understand the reasoning behind it though, and respect that.

But it's a gun board, and it has a "trading post" and people who haven't read the rules are gonna assume that means gun board + trading post section = trading guns.

You're setting your self up to have people posting wtb wts wtt, all the time. But then threaten ban hammers on repeat offenders.

I think it boils down to this question.
What good is the trading post section? It's kinda a joke if you ask me.. trading holsters and ammo? seriously?
Does BFA really need such a lousy trading section? not really, as has been mentioned there are other sites where you can do that stuff.

My only conclusion was the trading post is just taking up space on the index, is a constant subject of debate and BFA scorn.. just get rid of it, how many people actually use it?.

I only checked the section when I see several locked posts in it all the sudden from the "new threads" search

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Post subject: Re: ***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:24 pm
Joe:

I'm hoping that somebody else will clarify the link thing, but, stepping out on a link, err... limb, my take is that it's OK to post a link to your (or anybody else's) site where the link is a dealer, if the link reference is unspecific. IOW, my sig might contain a link to my favorite dealer's page, or my own page, where I sell firearms.

If the link is specific: "See me for a good selection of guns", it's probably a violation, but that might fly.

If I happen to mention that I'm looking for a car gun for the new Wheezermobile (or, in my case, Geezermobile :D), and you post a link to your gun sales site in a "we've got a good selection" or even "check here for a good list", it's probably a violation, too, although recommending Gunbroker shouldn't be an issue. (A "don't buy a Rhino" post likely would pass, too.) Likewise, a PM is a no-no on this basis, too. Short answer, I guess, is that it's OK to discuss the merits of some gun or other, and if you're a dealer and your sig says so, so what, but something like "call me or PM for good prices" wouldn't be....

The above is not necessarily the opinion of the management!

There is a way to put a notice at the top of an index, but I was only able to get it to work on one section, and can't remember where I put it :D. Seems to have wandered off.... (Or maybe I did....)

As to the index space, that's another "management" decision. I'd suggest a section for "people who hope Rich doesn't find out where they live".... :D

Dan:

We probably should prune all the comments and put the discussion elsewhere, and leave this "notice" alone? I'd try it, but I'm probably going to make a mess :D....

While discussion may be of value, a link to the discussion up top might better serve.

And I can crank Joe off by closing this :mrgreen:....

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:15 pm
OK...

First let me clear some things up. Various members were given different and sometimes conflicting advice about what can and cannot be done within the Trading Post forum. The fastest and most efficient way to correct this is to blanket ban this board's facilitation of transactions. When in doubt the answer is always NO!

This is a starting point to get everyone on the same page. I want you all to keep in mind what I posted in the rules:
Quote:
These rules are effective immediately and will remain in place until further notice. They are subject to change however so check this thread occasionally for updates.


Certain restrictions may be lifted once we have a chance to discuss things amongst the staff and moderators. Therein lies the problem. Getting us all together. Prioritizing each issue then reaching an agreement. None of us can be on 24/7 so communication on each subject takes time. Sometimes days before the right people see it. Now complicate matters by us all being volunteers with no written in stone guidelines to follow. Compound the issue even further with some of the moderators here not being staff members or even having access to staff member communications.

The Trading Post is an especially sensitive subject because it has the potential to create a catastrophic condition that would most definitely cost us money. A sting, underage sales, felony sales, stolen property sales are all possibilities just to name a few. You can trust me when I say that asking you to transact your firearms using another site is well worth the sacrifice when you consider what we have to protect. There may or may not be items of mutual interest being worked on in secret as we speak. If this were true would you really want the BFA to divert resources to defend itself against a couple of saboteurs?

Big picture folks. Focus on the big picture. We just got restaurant carry along with some other critical law changes and beat Cleveland in the courts. How about a little faith in the process for a while? Use another site for transactions of prohibited items for the time being. Watch the "***Attention*** Firearm posting rules explained" thread for changes.

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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:34 pm
I have bought and sold stuff other than firearms here, and like having the trading post.
When I was a member of "XXXX" I frequented the classifieds, but never bought or sold a firearm on it either. I did sell some ammo, and a snow blower there and bought a blade for my atv. I for one support the rule clarification, and I'm glad moderators are getting on the same page, or trying! There are plenty of alternatives for buying and selling firearms. I haven't been frequenting the forum as much lately because the moderation team was not all on the same page!

BFA does not need to get into a bloomburg sting, it will take sway from the priorities!

Thank You "powers that be" for clarifying the rules!

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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:20 pm
Dan:

Thanks for doing the prune/move. I had visions of sending the board into oblivion if I tried :mrgreen:....

Guys:

It's OK to criticize, complain, whatever, and to kick in a little humor, too, if that's your desire. The key points are that the folks who will make the final decisions, and the folks who will be charged with enforcing them,

A: Will take a while to figure out what exactly to do,

and

B: Welcome your input.

I think it is reasonable to assume that direct sales (i.e., posting a WTB or WTS) for an item that would need a 4473 when handled by a dealer, isn't going to happen. The rest is what's going to need some discussion.

So, some patience, please....

As for me, the wife just got home. Time to try to figure out what she's mad about this time :D....

(We just had our 36th anniversary. It just feels longer :mrgreen:. MUCH longer....)

(Sammy just turned 7, too, officially. We're not sure of his real birth date, so we use our anniversary. Close enough.)

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:44 pm
an observation on something i find disturbing and may cause me to leave the forum even though i just got here .. now im not terribly bright to ill try to make this as short an clear as my limeted intelect lets me ... if i happen to post in gun chat that im thinking about buying a 1911 and i was looking for advice .. then person x happens to pm me saying hey i have one for sale , contact me .. or vice versa , that this can get either party banned ... now bear with here .. yea i understand it is against the rules an im willing to follow them but this isnt realy about that rule but .. am i to take this as our private messages are monitered also ??
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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:14 pm
stephen45-70 wrote:
am i to take this as our private messages are monitered also ??



would you like too know ......... heheheheh :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:15 pm
They can't monitor private messages, we have discussed it before, well they cam but its difficult and they don't. I believe the idea is to limit posting the ads pm communication is different. I'm sure a mod will clear it up as I am simply giving my opinion. While "xxxx" does have a classifields section where you can post firearms, but they are wa6yyyyyyyyyyyyy more restrictive, picky, and not near as friendly in my opinion.

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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:19 pm
I've been trying to think of a nice way to word it, but I can't...so I'm sure this will not be a popular statement....

BFA is concerned about the very small chance some idiot will try something stupid, so they ban something for EVERYONE.

This is the exact thinking of antis. This is the thinking of posted locations. An infinitely small possibility of a "bloomberg" sting of a 2000 member forum, so no sales or trades period.
So serious in fact, that a thread from July (which even I had forgotten about) was immediately shut down.

I respect the fact this is the BFA's forum, and I hope you will respect the fact I will choose to spend my money on other firearms groups in the future, as well as no longer refer people here.

It is rather amusing that the BFA is concerned with selling or trading firearms, but not the content of some posts which could much more readily be used against them to discredit the organization.

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:40 pm
Quote:
Buckeye Firearms Association is a grassroots political action committee (PAC) dedicated to defending and advancing the right of Ohio citizens to own and use firearms for all legal activities.

Buckeye Firearms Association seeks to maximize your rights by endorsing and electing pro-gun candidates on the city, county, and state level, including mayors, sheriffs, legislators, and governor. We also work to defeat anti-gun legislation, pass pro-gun bills, and reform existing laws to benefit all Ohio citizens.

Unlike many anti-gun groups, we do not get our funding or support from wealthy activists or big corporations. We are a non-partisan, all-volunteer organization. Officers and supporters donate their time and skills to the pro-gun cause. Not a single dime from donors is spent on salaries or wasteful overhead. In fact, every penny is used to support political campaigns, influence public opinion, and advance gun rights around Ohio.
i read the about us section on the home page , now i questuon exactly what are the goals of bfa , if the goals are to protect and preserve our second amendment rights why are they being limeted on the board .. fact is its perfectly legal for us to buy sell or trade admidst ourselves . is the above statement true ? or another case of we will tell you what you want to hear to get your money and then do as we wish .... and as far as the excuse that we dont want to use our limeted funds to maybe possibly fight a possible bloomburg sting someday , we just want to spend your money where we want to ... sometimes you do not get to choose your battles , personaly i think our right to buy sell or trade between ourselves is as important as the right to carry concealed is ( as it seems bfa's main goal is polotics )
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Post subject: Re: Firearm transaction rules discussion.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:11 pm
stephen45-70 wrote:
personaly i think our right to buy sell or trade between ourselves is as important as the right to carry concealed is ( as it seems bfa's main goal is polotics )


As much as I disagree with this policy and the reasoning behind it, we still do have the right in Ohio to buy sell or trade between us, just not using BFA's forums. It is their forum, and they have the right to restrict such legal activity.

There are other options out there, this is not the only pro gun organization, nor the only pro gun organization forum, in Ohio.

In the "big picture" of this, it really won't effect me personally after this change. It also wouldn't effect me if shotguns were heavily restricted.....but I'd still argue against any shotgun ban.

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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