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Post subject: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:02 pm
I can't seem to find a straight answer in the ORC so I thought I would ask here. Can an individual carry a concealed weapon without a permit so long as they are on their own private property?
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:25 pm
Inside your home, yes. Outside on your property, no. ORC 2923.12 lists exceptions to the crime of Carrying a Concealed Weapon in section (C) (1), where we find (d):

Quote:
(d) A person's storage or possession of a firearm, other than a firearm described in divisions (G) to (M) of section 2923.11 of the Revised Code, in the actor's own home for any lawful purpose.


There is no exception I can find for carrying concealed outside your home, whether on your property or not.

The easiest solution if you don't have a concealed handgun license is to carry *openly*, which is a right guaranteed by the Ohio constitution. If you plan on carrying openly outside of your property, there are a few things you need to keep in mind, and if you are interested just ask.

Christian, Husband, Father
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Last edited by JustaShooter on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:59 pm
kc8iqw, why not end all the consternation and take a qualifying class and get your CHL? Temporary inconvenience but permanent improvement.

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves". - Edward R. Murrow
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:33 pm
Don't jump the gun on what the term home entails.

United States v. Dunn, 480 US 294 - Supreme Court 1987
Quote:
Drawing upon the Court's own cases and the cumulative experience of the lower courts that have grappled with the task of defining the extent of a home's curtilage, we believe that curtilage questions should be resolved with particular reference to four factors: the proximity of the area claimed to be curtilage to the home, whether the area is included within an enclosure surrounding the home, the nature of the uses to which the area is put, and the steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by. See California v. Ciraolo, 476 U.S. 207, 221 (1986) (POWELL, J., dissenting) (citing Care v. United States, 231 F.2d 22, 25 (CA10), cert. denied, 351 U.S. 932 (1956); United States v. Van Dyke, 643 F.2d 992, 993-994 (CA4 1981)). We do not suggest that combining these factors produces a finely tuned formula that, when mechanically applied, yields a "correct" answer to all extent-of-curtilage questions. Rather, these factors are useful analytical tools only to the degree that, in any given case, they bear upon the centrally relevant consideration - whether the area in question is so intimately tied to the home itself that it should be placed under the home's "umbrella" of Fourth Amendment protection.
My bold.

A fenced yard usually requires a warrant. The front yard not so much. The back yard that cannot be observed from the street/sidewalk is usually part of the home. Especially a fenced backyard requires a warrant.
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:54 pm
kc8icw:

Silly law, ain't it....

But don't forget that a lot of the 2004 law was placed there by mean-spirited folk who wanted to cook up a law that we would not want to pass.... Fooled them, but it's taken more than ten years to kill off some of the worst things.

Welcome Aboard, btw. There's a sticky at http://forums.buckeyefirearms.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10097 that you should have a look at. It's not mandatory, and may be hazardous to your health (or sanity). No need to go past the first couple pages unless you're into pain....

You will find out about the little dog in my avatar, and about the "attack cats" who tolerate my presence....

I will second morbius' suggestion. Something around $150, and a bit of a PITA, but it solves a lot of problems if you can get it.

I've been in Ham Radio since the late 50's. The Novice license was harder to get than an OH CHL if you're not legally blocked for some reason.

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:45 pm
Yes, I agree and have full intention to obtain by CC permit, however, having a 3 and 5 year old and 2 properties to fix up has greatly inhibited my spare cash and time :).

Also, spending 8 hours going over stuff, 90% of which I already know, requires a special kind of patience for my personality type. A local range offers courses for $120 and generally have a discount if you purchase a gun, which I need anyway. I mean, who doesn't need another gun? Trying to pocket carry a Ruger P94 doesn't exactly work, big and heavy but deadly accurate. I can carry it during the winter since I like oversized coats, but otherwise no.
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:04 pm
Did somebody use the word "curtilage" around color of law ? Wasn't me! :egrin:

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:07 pm
kc8iqw wrote:
Yes, I agree and have full intention to obtain by CC permit, however, having a 3 and 5 year old and 2 properties to fix up has greatly inhibited my spare cash and time :).

Also, spending 8 hours going over stuff, 90% of which I already know, requires a special kind of patience for my personality type. A local range offers courses for $120 and generally have a discount if you purchase a gun, which I need anyway. I mean, who doesn't need another gun? Trying to pocket carry a Ruger P94 doesn't exactly work, big and heavy but deadly accurate. I can carry it during the winter since I like oversized coats, but otherwise no.

If you are concerned about your safety in your own yard, why aren't you carrying openly? It's unquestionably legal, and it's much easier to access your handgun.

Modesty? Get over it. I openly carried mine all afternoon while working in the back yard. Start doing it, and eventually, you'll get used to it.
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:55 pm
kc8iqw:

Just happened to think....

We now have the option of taking most of the course online. I don't know who's doing it yet, and what the costs are, but the option is available.

The range time requirement is still necessary, but who really minds blowing away a few targets....

The course itself will probably bore you silly, but the coverage of some of Ohio's goofier laws might be worth the effort. Especially if you're likely to get hung up by one of the strange stuff in there, like carrying in a House of Worship.

If you prefer to do this in a classroom (the "networking" aspects, IMHO, are worth it) you can also find one-day courses. Bring a seat cushion :D.... You still have to deal with the application process in your County, but unless its a long ride or at some insane hour v.s. your regular schedule, that's a once every five years thing anyway.

If you're going to OC in your own yard, have your driver's license with you. Should you attract attention you may need to provide it to the LEO's that show up. Might not want 'em to follow you into the house :D....

It is a bit of money ('round here, about $150-$175, including the course and the mandated fee), but probably worth it. It also ups our counts ( :) ), which is nice, but IMHO the "fully legal" aspect may save you that same money if there is a problem.

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:47 am
SMMAssociates wrote:
If you're going to OC in your own yard, have your driver's license with you. Should you attract attention you may need to provide it to the LEO's that show up.

Why is that? Open Carry is legal, and even if a LEO thinks you need to identify yourself for some misguided reason you do not need to provide a driver's license.

Christian, Husband, Father
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NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:53 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
SMMAssociates wrote:
If you're going to OC in your own yard, have your driver's license with you. Should you attract attention you may need to provide it to the LEO's that show up.

Why is that? Open Carry is legal, and even if a LEO thinks you need to identify yourself for some misguided reason you do not need to provide a driver's license.


I agree with you JaS but keep in mind that Stu lives in a county/city rich with history of law enforcement and political shenanigans, okay corruption. I wouldn't be surprised at all, even now, to read accounts of police there arresting somebody for doing something perfectly legal like open carry.

After all in the 1960s and 70s there were mob types found dead in Mahoning County there with multiple bullet holes and the coroner rules the deaths as suicides. This is the land that gave us U.S. Congressman Jim Traficant, and more recently Marc Dann, the latter as Ohio Attorney General no less!

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:10 pm
Brian D. wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
SMMAssociates wrote:
If you're going to OC in your own yard, have your driver's license with you. Should you attract attention you may need to provide it to the LEO's that show up.

Why is that? Open Carry is legal, and even if a LEO thinks you need to identify yourself for some misguided reason you do not need to provide a driver's license.


I agree with you JaS but keep in mind that Stu lives in a county/city rich with history of law enforcement and political shenanigans, okay corruption. I wouldn't be surprised at all, even now, to read accounts of police there arresting somebody for doing something perfectly legal like open carry.

After all in the 1960s and 70s there were mob types found dead in Mahoning County there with multiple bullet holes and the coroner rules the deaths as suicides. This is the land that gave us U.S. Congressman Jim Traficant, and more recently Marc Dann, the latter as Ohio Attorney General no less!

It's a conspiracy i tell ya, a conspiracy.....
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Post subject: Re: CC and Private Property
Post Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:54 pm
Two Sheriff's convicted of something or other, one of which I knew fairly well, and one who did some time in the big house....

Former Prosecutor went away for selling verdicts. He once represented a friend who couldn't understand why her case got bollixed up. I kinda figured that the other side had bought him and the Judge. Turned out to be a good guess....

I could go on....

Short answer is that having an ID may solve more problems than it'll create. Downside for me is remembering which pants the ID is in - I tend to wear grubbies around the house, and you know who'd leave what in the wrong pair....

The average LEO around here is a decent guy, but if things escalate, it could get iffy.

Regards,

Stu

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