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Post subject: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:26 pm
A Customer has been told his Form 4 is not acceptable for Signature as it did not contain the Firearm Information on their Form 4. Is there a Lawyer here that could offer a "Legal Opinion" on what he could do to keep from listing the Firearm information. Below is Ohio's New O.R.C. Statute.
Thanks in Advance.

311.43 Certification by a chief law enforcement officer.

(A) As used in this section:

(1) "Certification" means the participation and assent of the chief law enforcement officer necessary under federal law for the approval of an application to make or transfer a firearm.

(2) "Chief law enforcement officer" means any official the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives, or any successor agency, identifies by regulation or otherwise as eligible to provide any required certification for the making or transfer of a firearm.

(3) "Concealed handgun license" has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.

(B) A resident of this state may submit to the sheriff of the county in which the resident resides or to the sheriff of any county adjacent to the county in which the resident resides any federal form that requires a law enforcement certification by a chief law enforcement officer.

(C) The sheriff shall accept and process the certification in the same manner as an application for a concealed handgun license is processed under section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, including the requirement for a background check, except as follows:

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:59 pm
NWBuckeye wrote:
A Customer has been told his Form 4 is not acceptable for Signature as it did not contain the Firearm Information on their Form 4. Is there a Lawyer here that could offer a "Legal Opinion" on what he could do to keep from listing the Firearm information.

Nobody should sign any certification where essential information is left blank, particularly when that certification states:
Quote:
I have no information indicating that the transferee will use the firearm or device described on this application for other than lawful purposes.

Filling in additional information after the sheriff signs could subject you to felony charges, particularly when you must sign before the sheriff does, and when your signature is based on the following certification:
Quote:
Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, correct and complete ...
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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:46 pm
The completed Form shouldn't require a Serial Number. The firearm Described shouldn't require it's Serial Number be given? A Completed form is the Individual Named and a Description of a Firearm. Not it's serial number. The Sheriff refused to sign until he knew Exactly what the Serial number was. That is only for a Registry of some sort. Period. I have had other Forms that had nothing more than a Name and a Firearm name signed off on. I also have Sheriffs telling Customers that they will only Sign off on 2 Forms? 311.43 requires them to Sign off as many as the Person presents to them. It looks like we may have to get further than what is written and clarify it somewhat. I agree that it has to be complete, but it is based on Ohio's CHL 2923.125 statute. No where do we have to have a serial number of the firearm we are Carrying.

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:41 am
NWBuckeye wrote:
The completed Form shouldn't require a Serial Number. The firearm Described shouldn't require it's Serial Number be given? A Completed form is the Individual Named and a Description of a Firearm. Not it's serial number.

Image
Quote:
Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, correct and complete ...

Straight from ATF Form 4. Those are the rules. Get over it.
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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:01 am
BATFE Form 4 has nothing to do with firearms that you might carry under the aegis of your CHL. The transfer of NFA weapons is facilitated by either obtaining the signature of your CLEO or qualifying through a trust, LLC, or corporation. The State of Ohio has enabled the individual potential firearm purchaser an easier avenue to obtain the CLEO signature by requiring that the Sheriff sign off for individuals that have a State of Ohio CHL (an assumption that the individual is able to otherwise lawfully carry and purchase a firearm).

Your firearm (whether a Title I or Title II) firearm is registered with BATFE from the time that it is manufactured (unless you made a Title I firearm yourself or it is illegal) to the time that you purchased it.


Second, the transfers of NFA regulated firearms are done on a case-by-case basis by BATFE, not your CLEO. The State of Ohio does not regulate the transfer, nor does the Sheriff unless he finds that you do not have a CHL or finds that you are not otherwise qualified to own a firearm (i.e., you are a convicted felon, you are under indictment or information, or have the intention of using the NFA firearm to commit a crime). True, the Sheriff or CLEO has to sign as many forms as you present to him, but each form has to be completed.

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:07 pm
311.43
"Certification" means the Participation and Assent of the CLEO necessary under Federal Law for the Approval of an Application to Make or Transfer a Firearm.

What does that exactly mean? Anyone here able to give a Legal Opinion?

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:58 am
NWBuckeye wrote:
311.43
"Certification" means the Participation and Assent of the CLEO necessary under Federal Law for the Approval of an Application to Make or Transfer a Firearm.

What does that exactly mean? Anyone here able to give a Legal Opinion?


A fancy way of saying he shall accept and process a Form 4. I'm still not sure how you think he is legally able to accept an incomplete Form 4 and sign off on it? That would be like asking a Notary to sign off on a Vehicle Title without the mileage being listed. Does it happen? Sure. Is it legal and rightful? No.
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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:28 am
It (assent) means to give approval, as opposed to consent, which means to give one's permission. The by federal statute your CLEO is not giving you permission, but rather saying that he sees no legal reason that you cannot own a Title II firearm. In essence he is granting consent for the process to continue (BATFE processing your paperwork and conducting their own background check required to complete this transfer), but he is not granting permission to own the firearm.

Uncle Duke



As I have no wish to toy with anybody's life, I suggest you take this and all other posts with a certain amount of skepticism. Carefully evaluate, and if necessary, research on your own any suggestions or advice you might pick up here, especially those from my posts, as I obviously haven't the skill and experience exhibited by some of the more illustrious and more successful members of this forum. I am not a lawyer, anything that is construed as advice is based upon my experience and understanding of the law and applicable statutes or regulations.

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:14 pm
NWBuckeye wrote:
311.43
"Certification" means the Participation and Assent of the CLEO necessary under Federal Law for the Approval of an Application to Make or Transfer a Firearm.

What does that exactly mean? Anyone here able to give a Legal Opinion?

"Assent" means the sheriff must "go along with it," regardless of whether the sheriff actually agrees. "Participation" means that the sheriff must actually sign and do whatever else is necessary to process the form, in addition to assenting. For the reasons I stated previously, the application must still be complete, and no court in the State of Ohio will make a sheriff sign an incomplete application.

There's your "Legal Opinion."
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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:29 pm
Werz wrote:
NWBuckeye wrote:
311.43
"Certification" means the Participation and Assent of the CLEO necessary under Federal Law for the Approval of an Application to Make or Transfer a Firearm.

What does that exactly mean? Anyone here able to give a Legal Opinion?

"Assent" means the sheriff must "go along with it," regardless of whether the sheriff actually agrees. "Participation" means that the sheriff must actually sign and do whatever else is necessary to process the form, in addition to assenting. For the reasons I stated previously, the application must still be complete, and no court in the State of Ohio will make a sheriff sign an incomplete application.

There's your "Legal Opinion."

And at no charge no less.....
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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:46 pm
Not exactly at no charge:



(B) A resident of this state may submit to the sheriff of the county in which the resident resides or to the sheriff of any county adjacent to the county in which the resident resides any federal form that requires a law enforcement certification by a chief law enforcement officer.

(C) The sheriff shall accept and process the certification in the same manner as an application for a concealed handgun license is processed under section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, including the requirement for a background check, except as follows:

(1) If a resident of this state submits one or more federal forms, the sheriff shall charge the resident no more than the applicable fee described in division (B)(1)(a) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, without regard to how many federal forms are submitted at the same time.

(2) If a resident of this state submits one or more federal forms and currently has a concealed handgun license or the sheriff has previously approved a federal form for that resident, the sheriff shall charge the resident no more than the applicable fee described in division (F)(4) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, without regard to how many federal forms are submitted at the same time.


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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:39 pm
Uncle Duke,

I was referring to the legal advice.
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Post subject: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can either?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:14 pm
Color of Law Stated: an application must still be complete, and no court in the State of Ohio will make a sheriff sign an incomplete application.
Yet Sheriffs are not All doing the same. Some Sign off without a Serial Number Present, some don't. The big reason I believe is because I made the Sheriff Process my Customers Forms. You see he refused to Sign as my Customer lived within City Limits. He told him he refused as he lived in the City and wasn't required to sign. I sent him back with a print out of the new law, which showed the Sheriff was Required. All the CLEO Signature does is show the Buyer is Not in the Local System, and gives the CLEO the Power to Prevent a Normal Transfer. It's been used that way for years. I'm just looking for an Attorney to see if their is Legal way to Prevent the Serial Number from being Listed as it is Not Required for an Ohio CHL License. The new Law (311.43) states;
(C) The sheriff shall accept and process the certification in the same manner as an application for a concealed handgun license is processed under section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, including the requirement for a background check, except as follows:
Nothing there requires a Serial Number. The Sheriffs are creating their Own Data Base which I think is Illegal?

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Post subject: Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:22 pm
color of law wrote:
Uncle Duke,

I was referring to the legal advice.


Thanks, I'll take free legal advice whenever I can get it. My attorney charges me $150 to take phone calls or write a simple letter.


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Post subject: Re: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can eith
Post Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:03 am
NWBuckeye wrote:
I'm just looking for an Attorney to see if their is Legal way to Prevent the Serial Number from being Listed as it is Not Required for an Ohio CHL License.

You may find a lawyer who will tell you to just leave it off and see what happens. But if the sheriff refuses to sign, you won't find a lawyer who has the authority to tell the sheriff that he has to do it. The sheriff will listen to his own legal representative, and his legal representative will tell him not to sign until the application is complete, including the serial number in Box 4(g).

NWBuckeye wrote:
The new Law (311.43) states;
(C) The sheriff shall accept and process the certification in the same manner as an application for a concealed handgun license is processed under section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, including the requirement for a background check, except as follows:
Nothing there requires a Serial Number. The Sheriffs are creating their Own Data Base which I think is Illegal?

Try submitting an application for a concealed handgun license with missing information and see what happens.
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