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Post subject: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:16 pm
It has come to my attention that Cleveland Clinic Police have disarmed Ohio peace officers of their duty weapons who came to the hospital to visit family. The rent-a-cops claimed they had the right to disarm peace officers because of the gun buster signs they posted pursuant to R.C. § 2923.126(C).

The Ohio Attorney General published an opinion about whether off duty peace officers are subject to the same restrictions as citizens who hold a concealed handgun license, and concluded that they are not. That opinion can be found here: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/geta ... 4-028.aspx. The relevant discussion begins on page 11 and ends on page 14. The Attorney General opined that R.C. § 2923.126 extends the right to carry a firearm to off duty peace officers, but does not extend the restrictions that specifically apply to "licensees." The Attorney General noted that, while the legislature expressly extended the right, conspicuously absent was an imposition of a requirement to be subjected to the restrictions that apply to "licensees," while at the same time, the legislature extended that same right to out of state concealed carry holders and additionally expressly extended the restrictions to out-of-staters that are imposed upon Ohio "licensees."

I should note that the legislature has had 13 years with which to know of the opinion of the Attorney General and has chosen not to change the language to extend the restrictions to off duty peace officers. Furthermore, the legislature has subsequently added two classes of persons (i.e., retired peace officers and members of the military) to R.C. § 2923.126 and expressly extended both the right to carry and the restrictions, but has not changed the language to extend the restrictions to peace officers. Current R.C. § 2923.126 can be found here: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126. That is a very, very clear legislative intent that the restrictions that apply to "licensees" in R.C. § 2923.126(B) and R.C. § 2923.126(C) do not apply to peace officers.

I should also note that if those rent-a-cops happen to do this to a peace officer who's department policy states that they are always on duty or required to carry a firearm when not at work, such disarming is a first degree felony. See R.C. § 2911.01(B) http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.01v1.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:42 pm
My question is, was it a Rent-A-Cop or a police officer who is employed by a hospital that employs and maintains its own proprietary police department and who is appointed and commissioned by the secretary of state pursuant to sections 4973.17 to 4973.22 of the Revised Code?
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:09 pm
They are police officers and not security guards. I assume that they are appointed pursuant to R.C. § 4973.17(B). I don't know how that is relevant though. It does not matter who they are, they do not have privilege to disarm a peace officer pursuant to a private property anti-weapons policy pursuant to R.C. § 2923.126(B). And they are rent-a-cops in the true sense of the word; they are peace officers hired by a private business, and are breaking the law in order to enforce the rules of that business.

The disarmed a full time Deputy Sheriff who was there to visit his grandmother who is terminally ill. He said that the lock-up had a sign in sheet for firearms that was signed by many who signed "Officer ....." and "Duputy ..."

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:56 am
Quote:
4749.08 Distinguished from law enforcement officer.

(A) No class A, B, or C licensee, or registered employee of a class A, B, or C licensee shall be considered, because of licensure or registration under this chapter, a law enforcement officer for any purpose. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed as granting the right to carry a concealed weapon.

(B) The rules of the department of public safety adopted for the administration of this chapter shall include provisions to assure that any uniform or identification card shall be so designed as to avoid confusion of a private investigator, security guard provider, or registered employee with any law enforcement officer in this state.

Effective Date: 11-27-1985; 07-01-2004

Security guards don't even come close to being a sworn officer. Yes, it is a big deal.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:00 pm
I know the difference between a security guard and a peace officer. I just don't see how it is relevant here. The persons being disarmed by employees of the Cleveland Clinic are peace officers, and that is illegal. I guess it is more shocking if a security guard is doing the disarming verses a privately employed police officer.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:38 am
Liberty wrote:
The disarmed a full time Deputy Sheriff who was there to visit his grandmother who is terminally ill. He said that the lock-up had a sign in sheet for firearms that was signed by many who signed "Officer ....." and "Duputy ..."

Sounds like a lot of "peace officers" are caving in to the guards demands!
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:20 am
No you don't know. You said: “They are police officers and not security guards. I assume that they are appointed pursuant to R.C. § 4973.17(B).........And they are rent-a-cops in the true sense of the word; they are peace officers hired by a private business, and are breaking the law in order to enforce the rules of that business.” Then I pointed out under R.C. § 4749.08(A) that a rent-a-cop/security guard is not a law enforcement officer for any purpose.

Merriam-Webster “rent–a–cop:” a security worker (such as a guard) who is not a police officer.

A big difference, Security Guards do NOT have arrest powers unlike law enforcement officers. And law enforcement officers have arrest powers even off duty.

My question is, what is the real story?

Now as to your following quote:
Liberty wrote:
I know the difference between a security guard and a peace officer. I just don't see how it is relevant here. The persons being disarmed by employees of the Cleveland Clinic are peace officers, and that is illegal. I guess it is more shocking if a security guard is doing the disarming verses a privately employed police officer.

No Ohio law gives an off duty officer authority to just go anywhere they want. For what law enforcement purpose was the officer visiting the hospital? None. Did the off duty officer have a warrant? No. If a “no firearms” sign was posted, the off duty officer could have been arrested for trespass if he proceeded into the hospital armed.

I suggest you read Fox v. DeSoto 489 F.3d 227 (6th Cir. 2007)
http://www.leagle.com/decision/20077164 ... .%20DeSOTO
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:55 am
I don't care what Merriam-Webster says. Security guards are not cops (city official police) as you explained very well, so they cannot be rent-a-cops. An official police officer appointed under R.C. § 4973.17(B) and rented or employed by the Cleveland Clinic is a rent-a-cop.

Fox v. DeSoto is irrelevant. The Cleveland Clinic is in Cleveland Ohio not Louisville Kentucky, and there is a difference between law enforcement officers and peace officers in Ohio. All peace officers are law enforcement officers, but not all law enforcement officers are peace officers. e.g., IRS agents and prosecutors are law enforcement officers but not peace officers. Only off duty peace officers are exempt from private property anti-weapons policies.

Please take the time to read the Ohio Attorney General's opinion that I referenced and provided a link to in my original post. The Cleveland Clinic has the right to prohibit persons from carrying firearms on their premises pursuant to R.C. § 2923.126(C). Those who possess a valid Ohio CHL and those who are deemed to be licensed under that section to carry a handgun are not exempt and must obey the Cleveland Clinic's policy, and their rent-a-cops have the right to enforce that policy. However, as noted by the Ohio Attorney General, private businesses such as the Cleveland Clinic cannot enforce such a policy against off duty Ohio peace officers. Please reread my original post and its supporting documents.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
Last edited by Liberty on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:10 pm
Cruiser wrote:
Liberty wrote:
The disarmed a full time Deputy Sheriff who was there to visit his grandmother who is terminally ill. He said that the lock-up had a sign in sheet for firearms that was signed by many who signed "Officer ....." and "Duputy ..."

Sounds like a lot of "peace officers" are caving in to the guards demands!

True; which is why I decided to write this post. The deputy that I talked to when I was at the Cleveland Clinic was not sure what to do. He thought he was exempt from their policy, but did not know where the legal standard is. Also, there is a lot of misinformation out there.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:55 pm
Liberty wrote:
........

Please take the time to read the Ohio Attorney General's opinion that I referenced and provided a link to in my original post. The Cleveland Clinic has the right to prohibit persons from carrying firearms on their premises pursuant to R.C. § 2923.126(C). Those who possess a valid Ohio CHL and those who are deemed to be licensed under that section to carry a handgun are not exempt and must obey the Cleveland Clinic's policy, and their rent-a-cops have the right to enforce that policy. However, as noted by the Ohio Attorney General, private businesses such as the Cleveland Clinic cannot enforce such a policy against off duty Ohio peace officers. Please reread my original post and its supporting documents.

For the purposes of this discussion a peace officer and law enforcement officer are synonymous, see 2901.01(A)(11) and 2935.01(B). Nowhere in the AG's opinion does it address the term "anywhere in this state." If "anywhere in this state" meant "anywhere in this state" then warrant requirements and trespass laws would be superfluous.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/2938 ... -treatment

Let me just say, if no sign was posted or depending on what a sign said if posted the "person" attempting to stop the officer could have been out of line.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:31 pm
What happens in Hawaii and Kentucky has no bearing on Ohio law. This is the prevailing opinion of the Ohio Attorney General:

"R.C. 2923.126(C) prohibits a licensee from carrying a concealed handgun on private premises or property when: (1) a private employer has a rule, policy, or practice prohibiting the carrying of firearms on the premises or property, or (2) a person or entity posts a sign prohibiting a person from carrying firearms on the premises or property." See the middle of page 12.

"R.C. 2923.126(B) and R.C. 2923.126(C) thus set forth a list of places where a 'licensee' may not carry a concealed handgun. * * * The definition of “licensee” does not explicitly include law enforcement officers." See the last paragraph of page 12.

"[N]othing in the language of R.C. 2923.126 or elsewhere in the Revised Code indicates that law enforcement officers must comply with the statutes that restrict when a “licensee” may carry a concealed handgun. In other words, the General Assembly expressly extended the “right” to law enforcement officers, but did not similarly and expressly extend the restrictions." See the first paragraph on page 13.

"In light of the definition of 'licensee' set out in R.C. 2923.124(D) and the specific language used in R.C. 2923.126(D) and R.C. 2923.1213(C), it is our opinion that the General Assembly intended to extend to off-duty law enforcement officers who are peace officers, as defined in R.C. 2935.01(B), the right to carry a concealed handgun, but did not intend to subject these officers to the same restrictions as are imposed upon a person issued a license to carry a concealed handgun under R.C. 2923.125. Accordingly, neither R.C. 2923.126(B) nor R.C. 2923.126(C) restricts the right of a law enforcement officer who is a peace officer, as defined in R.C. 2935.01(B), to carry a concealed handgun while off duty." Emphasis added. See the second paragraph on page 14.

The opinion can be found on the Ohio Attorney General's website. Here is a link to that opinion: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/geta ... 4-028.aspx.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:29 am
There's an old saying that a person who represents himself in court has a fool for a client. Liberty, you are turning a blind eye to the rights of private property owners. The officer is not visiting the hospital for a law enforcement purpose. In that capacity, as a visitor, he is no different than any other citizen, period. And he can be trespassed.

The AG opinion is just that, an opinion. Attorney General opinions provide valuable advice to public officials and are useful in guiding the actions of those officials. Attorney General opinions have no effect on private citizens or private businesses. And Attorney General opinions are not binding on the courts. Courts can give formal opinions careful consideration, but they are not law.

I wish you luck with your endeavors.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:33 pm
color of law wrote:
The officer is not visiting the hospital for a law enforcement purpose. In that capacity, as a visitor, he is no different than any other citizen, period. And he can be trespassed.

But I thought you said that peace officers have arrest powers even while off duty. Additionally, Ohio law imposes a duty upon peace officers to enforce the laws. At the Cleveland Clinic, they would be required to enforce the laws of the state while unarmed.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
Last edited by Liberty on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:39 pm
The thing about the AG’s opinion is that it was written 13 years ago. The legislature could have changed the law to extend the restrictions in R.C. § 2923.126(B) and R.C. § 2923.126(C) to apply to peace officers as it had originally done with out of state carry license holders, but the legislature did the opposite. The General Assembly subsequently added two classes of persons (i.e., retired peace officers and members of the military) to R.C. § 2923.126 and expressly extended both the right to carry and the restrictions, but did not changed the language to extend the restrictions to peace officers. That should satisfy the textualists and the legislative intent interpreters.

I heard a rumor that the FOP is contemplating bringing legal action against the Cleveland Clinic. Care to make a wager on who would win?

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:03 pm
Liberty wrote:
I heard a rumor that the FOP is contemplating bringing legal action against the Cleveland Clinic. Care to make a wager on who would win?


Both groups carry some political clout in Columbus, that would be an interesting matchup.

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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