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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:46 pm
I just heard another idea:

1. Joe Deputy's department policy says that he must be armed at all times for purposes of fulfilling his 24 hour duty to enforce laws and keep the peace.
2. Joe Deputy goes to the Cleveland Clinic to visit a family member.
3. Cleveland Clinic rent-a-cop demands that Joe Deputy surrender his weapon.
4. Joe Deputy arrests the rent-a-cop and charges him with a violation of R.C. § 2911.01(B).
5. Real cops throw their weight behind the prosecution.
6. Rent-a-cop gets convicted and is sentenced to 11 years in prison.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:12 pm
Liberty, you are acting like a liberal progressive.
Quote:
R.C. § 2911.01(B) No person, without privilege to do so, shall knowingly remove or attempt to remove a deadly weapon from the person of a law enforcement officer, or shall knowingly deprive or attempt to deprive a law enforcement officer of a deadly weapon, when both of the following apply:
(1) The law enforcement officer, at the time of the removal, attempted removal, deprivation, or attempted deprivation, is acting within the course and scope of the officer's duties;
(2) The offender knows or has reasonable cause to know that the law enforcement officer is a law enforcement officer.
Visiting a family member at the hospital IS NOT acting within the course and scope of the officer's duties.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:00 pm
I've been called a lot of things, but never a liberal progressive. I thought they hated guns and local law enforcement.

Anyhow, I thought you said that Ohio peace officers have arrest powers even when off duty.

If Joe Deputy’s Sheriff has a policy that all of his deputies are always on duty and must be armed at all times in order to keep the peace, those deputies are always acting within the course and scope of their duties.

If Joe Deputy is visiting family and two dirt-bags try to rape a nurse, does Joe Deputy have an obligation to intervene—given the above stated policy? If he does not intervene because he voluntarily relinquished his duty weapon to a rent-a-cop, does that constitute dereliction of duty?

The real question about my July 12th post is: do you think the Ohio Supreme Court would uphold the rent-a-cop’s 11 year sentence? I think it would be a slam dunk in County Court and the Appellate Court, both of which rely upon the Sheriff for security.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:49 am
Liberty wrote:
I've been called a lot of things, but never a liberal progressive. I thought they hated guns and local law enforcement.

Anyhow, I thought you said that Ohio peace officers have arrest powers even when off duty.

......

But you are acting like a progressive. You are acting with a bias. And that is unlike you.

On duty, off duty or in the line of duty.

State Highway Patrol:
Administrative Rule 4501:2-6-01: (G) "On duty" means any of the following:
(1) In uniform and performing job related activities; or
(2) Acting pursuant to an order from a supervisor or engaged in or carrying out any duty required of a member; or
(3) Operating or being a passenger in motor equipment owned or leased by the division or the state of Ohio.

Police department policy that effect their employees have no effect on the public.
What if the police department policy was that their officers must search every home and business in their jurisdiction for guns. You know this would not pass the smell test.
The private sector has no obligation to comply with Police department policy. Police department policy is not law.

State law does not, in any sense of the words, allow police to go anywhere at anytime they want to go.

R.C. § 9.68(A) says: “The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.”

Nowhere in this section of law is there an exception for police. In fact the law says if there is an exception there will be a law.

2923.126(C)(3)(a) says: “Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass under section 2911.21 of the Revised Code or under any other criminal law of this state or criminal law, ordinance, or resolution of a political subdivision of this state, and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.”

Where in this section does it say that this section does not apply to police officers off duty or for a non-law enforcement purpose. It doesn't.

Based on your logic, just because the police department wants their officers the carry 24/7, then that policy would allow an off duty officer to carry a gun in a bar and drink to his harts content. And because of the policy an off duty police officer cannot arrest the drunk cop for being in possession of a firearm while under the influence? An off duty officer could arrest the drunk cop in his line of duty.

I really think you need to rethink your position. I personally believe most of the laws regarding guns are unconstitutional. But, if we don't respect private property rights we are doomed. However, businesses don't enjoy total property rights like our private homes.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:58 am
The scenario that I proposed was not an Ohio State Highway Patrolman. Section 4501:2-6-01 of the Ohio Administrative Code is the set of administrative rules that apply only to the OSP. Even so, number 2 under subdivision G that you cited provides that a state highway patrolman is legally "on duty" when "[a]cting pursuant to an order from a supervisor." That would fall within my scenario.

The person whom I spoke with at the Cleveland Clinic was a full time Deputy Sheriff, and that is who my scenario is based upon.

Chapter 311 of the Ohio Revised Code applies to Sheriffs and their deputies. The powers and duties of Sheriffs are contained within R.C. § 311.07 which states:

"Each sheriff shall preserve the public peace and cause all persons guilty of any breach of the peace, within the sheriff's knowledge or view, to enter into recognizance with sureties to keep the peace and to appear at the succeeding term of the court of common pleas, and the sheriff shall commit such persons to jail in case they refuse to do so.
* * * *
Law enforcement officers acting pursuant to this section outside the territory of their regular employment have the same authority to enforce the law as when acting within the territory of their regular employment."

The entire text for the conduct of deputy sheriffs is contained within R.C. § 311.05:

"The sheriff shall only be responsible for the neglect of duty or misconduct in office of any of his deputies if he orders, has prior knowledge of, participates in, acts in reckless disregard of, or ratifies the neglect of duty or misconduct in office of the deputy."

Other parts of Ohio law define deputies as peace officers as we previously discussed.

So back to my question, how would the Ohio Supreme Court rule?

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:04 am
I understand the concern for private property rights, but we also have to recognize reality. And reality here is what the Ohio law says and how the courts rule. The bottom line is that I would not want to be a police officer employed by a hospital and ordered to take the weapon of any law enforcement officer—and especially not from a deputy sheriff.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:06 am
"I don't think I'll let you arrest us today, Behan".

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:43 pm
Ok. I'll pick up from there.

Joe Deputy calls his Sheriff's cell phone and says "remember what we talked about—well I am at the Cleveland clinic and rent-a-cop said 'I don't think I'll let you arrest us today, Behan'."

The Sheriff says "tell your grandmother that we all miss her here at the office" and to "stand by" while he calls the chief of the rent-a-cops and tells chief of the rent-a-cops that he is being called to the Sheriff's aid pursuant to R.C. § 311.07 and ordered to assist Joe Deputy in arresting rent-a-cop and transporting him to the county jail—of course—after reminding the chief of the rent-a-cops that proprietary police department's certifications to operate as a law enforcement agency is contingent upon the consent of the local chief law enforcement officer, i.e., the Sheriff, and that revocation of such would strip all of the rent-a-cops of their commissions.

There is no shootout at the Cleveland Clinic Corral. The chief of the rent-a-cops complies and transports rent-a-cop to the county jail where he is charged, not only with aggravated robbery, but also with resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, obstructing official business and additionally with a firearm specification. In this scenario, rent-a-cop gets 15 years in prison.

How would the Ohio Supreme Court rule?

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:03 pm
I was actually referring to Joe Deputy saying that line to Cleveland Clinic Cop "Behan", and I wasn't being particularly serious.

Was told that years ago, in some kind of "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" drug sting gone bad, Cincinnati PD and Hamilton County undercovers tried to arrest each other. Supervisors from each agency showed up and straightened things out, but not before the actual criminals present got huge laughs out of the whole scenario.

Now, this is just my way of saying that your hypothetical might not play out as you described, Liberty.

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:03 pm
Liberty, so police officers are paid 24/7? Because if they are always on-duty using your logic, the IRS and FLSA may want to get ahold of those officers and make sure they are paid appropriately. Also, almost every department I know says officers cannot have alcohol or be under the influence of any drug while on duty, therefore, using your logic police in the state of Ohio can never drink alcohol.

I think the Ohio Supreme Court would rule that police officers are off-duty unless their is an act that they could possibly assist in, even if that means call 911 and report the crime. I'm not great at looking up specific case law, but I know many courts have ruled police officers have no more of an obligation to act in a crime while off duty than you or I. The difference is if they do, good samaritan laws will not protect them and they place their department at a risk of liability.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:20 am
I never said peace officers get paid 24/7. See http://www.lawenforcement.com/article/5 ... explained/ and http://taubmanlaw.net/ohio-police-officers-never-duty/.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:41 am
See also: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/737.11v1. and http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/311.07. There is nothing there that restricts their authority when they are not on the clock.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:58 am
Liberty wrote:

But, but, but...Liberty, you are grabbing at straws. Both cites fail to point to one law that supports their statements. The law firm makes the bold statement: "An Off Duty Cop Who is Injured is always considered on duty and can make a workers compensation claim in Ohio." True, but that does NOT mean they will get it. See http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4123.01 For off-duty peace officers to get Workers' compensation they have to get hurt while being involved in an inherently dangerous situation. In other words, off-duty, but in the line of duty.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:07 pm
Liberty wrote:
See also: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/737.11v1. and http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/311.07. There is nothing there that restricts their authority when they are not on the clock.
Both sections say police and the sheriff have a duty "to preserve the public peace and protect persons and property." Yet, the courts have said the police have no duty to protect persons and property.
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Post subject: Re: Cleveland Clinic Rent-A-Cops Disarming Peace Officers
Post Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:42 pm
color of law wrote:
Liberty wrote:
See also: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/737.11v1. and http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/311.07. There is nothing there that restricts their authority when they are not on the clock.
Both sections say police and the sheriff have a duty "to preserve the public peace and protect persons and property." Yet, the courts have said the police have no duty to protect persons and property.

Show me the case that says those sections of the Ohio Revised Code cannot be enforced.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms**disarm only those who [don't] commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides." - Thomas Jefferson.
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