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Post subject: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:04 pm
Does anybody here have any familiarity with Mossberg's new line of AR-15 rifles? Please post any info you have. Thanks.

Greg in Hinckley

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:58 am
Haven't even seen one or held it in my hands yet Greg. I will likely get a chance at the Shot Show next month however. If so, I will let you know what I think ;)

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:09 pm
Any Ideas on price comparisons with other major models??

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:06 am
Looks like they are going to run between $921 and $1050 depending on model.

Basic description....
Quote:
All MMR rifles feature a traditional direct-impingement gas system for reliable, smooth operation; free-floating, button-rifled, carbon steel barrels with 1:9 twist rates for increased accuracy in this standard military chambering; single stage triggers


Sounds good and looks nice. They just need to fix Gene Stoner's original sin.

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:33 am
diamondsun wrote:
Looks like they are going to run between $921 and $1050 depending on model.

Basic description....
Quote:
All MMR rifles feature a traditional direct-impingement gas system for reliable, smooth operation; free-floating, button-rifled, carbon steel barrels with 1:9 twist rates for increased accuracy in this standard military chambering; single stage triggers


Sounds good and looks nice. They just need to fix Gene Stoner's original sin.


There is NOTHING wrong with Stoner's system...it was and is pure brilliance, honestly what other semi-auto firearm has been issued and used in that qty that is as light, as versatile, and as accurate ?? Answer, NONE.....Stoners design stands right up there with some of John Browning's best work.

But the concept of a $1000 MOSSBERG.....heheheheh


Bill

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:53 pm
diamondsun,

I'm not at all familiar with AR-15 design. Could you explain exactly what is Gene Stoner's "original sin"?

Greg in Hinckley

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:54 pm
morbius wrote:
diamondsun,

I'm not at all familiar with AR-15 design. Could you explain exactly what is Gene Stoner's "original sin"?

Greg in Hinckley


I took it as a back door endorsement of the multitude of gas piston modifications currently in vogue.

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:57 pm
There is a good write up about it in this latest issue of GUNS Magazine, or another one, I believe. I have several such magazines out in my car. I still have my .223 Mini-14 and have not gone to a black-plastic gun yet...not that I need another gun.
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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:14 am
morbius wrote:
diamondsun,

I'm not at all familiar with AR-15 design. Could you explain exactly what is Gene Stoner's "original sin"?

Greg in Hinckley

i'd suspect he's refering to the "direct impingement" gas system... some folks believe it's inferior to piston-driven gas systems, because of fouling in the action can build up over repeated used between cleanings,... thus increasing the risk of malfunctions at inopertune times... this is a highly debated issue, ...the other side of the argument is that it works fine, and the piston-guys are barking up the wrong tree... i won't pretend i know which side is "right"... :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:57 pm
Exactly right. The direct gas system is the only problem I've ever had with the AR platform. Fortunately, as Bill pointed out, lots of options now exist.......and he's right, a grand is a ridiculous price for a Mossy.

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:50 am
diamondsun wrote:
Exactly right. The direct gas system is the only problem I've ever had with the AR platform. Fortunately, as Bill pointed out, lots of options now exist.......and he's right, a grand is a ridiculous price for a Mossy.


The Stoner system has proven itself over time. There is some mis understanding about the name "direct impingement" and what that really means. But I have never heard of a fouling issue once the bugs were worked out that would prevent any soldier from completing his mission and firing at least a basic load of ammo(and in reality far more than that) without cleaning the gun.

It would take 40+ years in battle used by nearly every soldier who carries a rifle for a piston system to earn the same level of competence the Stoner system has earned.

There was an excellent series of articles in Small Arms Review about the development of the stoner system rifle that became the M16...and the choices the military made in the beginning that lead to some of the failures in the field (ball powder not extruded as the developer intended)...this was to extend barrel life...and typically barrel life is one of the lowest priorities of an infantry rifle design. If they had just used the gun and ammunition as designed the whole system would have been a more spectacular success.

We must also consider that the whole system was designed in 1957 and mfg in a far different era mfg wise, but the end result was something almost unheard of back then, a sub moa infantry rifle that weighed 6.3 lbs unloaded...held 20 rounds (and eventually 30) and was from my own experience a FAR easier rifle to shoot accurately than the M14 or the M1 garand...one of my highest offhand scores in Service rifle was in the Small Arms Firing School at camp perry. Like many other infantry rifles it would suffice as a bayonet handle if need be as well.
Then we look at ammunition............................a 10 kilo basic load of ammo for the M16 looks like this

33 mags @ 9.9 kg for 660 rds(20 round magazines)...if you want to add back the weight saved in the rifle we would have about another two (20) round mags OR about 250 rounds on strippers for a total of 700 rounds in mags or 660 in mags and 250 in strippers for s total of 910 rounds on hand.

Contrast this to the M14 rifle which weighed 9.8 lbs unloaded plus
14 mags @ 9.52 kg for 280 rds

And the enemies rifle which weigs 9.43 lbs unloaded plus
10 mags @ 9.2 kg for 300 rds


Sure there is an effectiveness difference between 7.62 nato and 5.56, and a smaller one between 7.62x39 and 5.56....but the forces isolated without resupply armed with M16's will have the luxury of a lot more ammo, AND a more accurate rifle (mechanically more accurate plus easier to SHOOT more accurately for many people) within the type of warfare that the M16 was developed for.

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Post subject: Re: Mossberg's New AR-15 Rifles
Post Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:36 pm
On a "semi" (no pun intended) related note: When Colt's Manufacturing moves their operations from tax-crazy Connecticut to business friendly Florida, do you think that the manufacturer's suggested retail prices on the AR-15s and other Colt firearms will be reduced?

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