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Post subject: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:52 pm
Similar to the other thread I've also been looking at purchasing an AR15 in the next year, say, before November as I'm not sure this year's elections will yield much favor for the firearm community. With that being said I've been doing somewhat extensive research on the platform and have determined for the casual shooter there is such a thing as "too much" so I don't want or break the bank nor do I want bottom of the barrel. Based on this research here is what I've determined:

- Usage: would be for purely recreational purposes. I'm interested in long-distance shooting just for kicks but let's be honest... I'd like to own one before you can't.
- Barrel (length): Obviously longer is typically more accurate but from what I've been reading there is negligible muzzle speed between each increment (maybe 100fps). I have a 12ga for self/home defense so extra length won't affect that decision.
- Barrel (twist): 1/9" looks pretty standard, not sure if I'd ever need 1/7".
- Barrel (type): 5.56 for flexibility of ammunitions costs
- Upper: leaning towards the A3 for future flexibility of a scope but would like opinions between A2 & A3
- Lower: pre-ban obviously, not sure what the other options here would be
- Brand: Another point of contention. I have been looking at DPMS, Bushmaster, and Ruger. Cheaper than dirt has a wide array of all of those so it gets a little fuzzy.
- Stock: adjustable
- Trigger: I've found that I like my trigger light on rifles so adjustable would be nice.
- Cost: I'd like to spend under $1000 out the door but if some fuzzy spousal math is required to overcome quality shortcomings so be it. I'm not opposed to building it piece by piece but there are a LOT of parts out there. I build computers so I'm sure this is the firearm equivalent of building a PC from scratch however is this approach necessarily cheaper or worth the effort?
- Accessories: open to suggestions here as well.

Any thoughts from current or previous owners to help nudge me around would be greatly appreciated Thanks.
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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:50 pm
For long distance shooting bro you want a 1 in 7. The fast twist will stabilize the heavier 77gr match ammo. The heavier match stuff will buck the wind and fly better at longer distance. Keep in mind twist rate has nothing to do with weight but length of the bullet, needing more spin to stabilize a longer bullet.

1 in 9 is typically for lighter shorter overall bullets. The stainless steel from NorPac which make poly rifled barrels are probably some of the most accurate barrels made right now. They supply MFG's like Wilson Combat and Noveske.

If your not looking for a SD rifle take advantage of the longer barrel but keep in mind the formula for muzzle velocity isn't a strait 100fps/ inch of barrel length. Hopefully someone with more knowledge then mysel will chime in but I personally don't see any advantage to go over 18inches for an ar in 5.56, at least for my needs anyway.

Good luck with whatever you purchase. They (AR's) are alot of fun.

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:52 am
ditto what ranger said about the 1:7, ..but i'd say the match ammo might suit the long distance competetor, moreso than "recreational", just IMO.. 1:7 is what the .mil uses for the M4/M16.. i have one w/ 1:7 and one w/ 1:9, ..both shoot my 55gr .223 or 5.56 XM193 ammo fine..

go w/ a 5.56 chamber, for the most ammo versatility..

a mid-lenght gas system is nice, IMO.. longer sight radius, and more useable rail/grip space...

i'd also recommend ditching the standard AR hand grip, it sucks (prevents my hand from getting a good, and comfortable, grip)! i like the magpul MIAD grip, ...but there are others to choose from..

as for buying complete rifle vs. assembling yourself, ... i will say in my experience, i think i spent more to build it myself, but this was mainly to get a rifle w/ exactly the parts i wanted, including iron sights front and rear.. some folks say you can save money buy building yourself, ..perhaps if you stick to some of the more common parts (stock, etc.).. aimsurplus has some good deals on complete rifles from time to time, ..as do other vendors, ..and check your local store for sales... if you can find what you want in a complete rifle, that is probably the way to go..

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:14 am
d80buckeye,

Please explain your comment:

Quote:
Lower: pre-ban obviously, not sure what the other options here would be


Don't quite understand it.

I am often considered an old throwback, but I can't see the use of an M4 type over the M16 type. Both of my uppers are 20". I have in the classic A1 style, pencil barrel, 1:12 twist and triangular handguards. I also have one in the A2 style, heavier barrel, 1:7 twist and round handguards. They BOTH fit on the same lower, with an A1 grip to get rid of the finger groove bump and the shorter A1 stock with butt compartment.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:08 am
Buckshot wrote:
d80buckeye,

Please explain your comment:

Quote:
Lower: pre-ban obviously, not sure what the other options here would be


Don't quite understand it.

Buckshot


I think I confused myself with something I read at one point about the pre-ban lower. So far I've weeded out the idea of an adjustable trigger as it probably isn't needed. I'm also having a hard time finding a complete manufactured rifle with the 20" barrel and the 1/7 twist for the price range I originally targeted and may have to settle for a more standard 16", 1/9 twist.

As I suspected there is a lot out there with more opinions than there are parts and brands :xconf: Does anyone have any experience with Palmetto or Del-Ton? Another site I was eyeballing was cheaperthandirt.com but I have my reservations...
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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:31 pm
d80buckeye wrote:
Buckshot wrote:
d80buckeye,

Please explain your comment:

Quote:
Lower: pre-ban obviously, not sure what the other options here would be


Don't quite understand it.

Buckshot


I think I confused myself with something I read at one point about the pre-ban lower. So far I've weeded out the idea of an adjustable trigger as it probably isn't needed. I'm also having a hard time finding a complete manufactured rifle with the 20" barrel and the 1/7 twist for the price range I originally targeted and may have to settle for a more standard 16", 1/9 twist.

As I suspected there is a lot out there with more opinions than there are parts and brands :xconf: Does anyone have any experience with Palmetto or Del-Ton? Another site I was eyeballing was cheaperthandirt.com but I have my reservations...



Looking at the Specs, PSA rifles are alot better then say a bushy, not saying bushys are bad just that for the same money you can do better! Here are some links for you to look at, buy a complete 20" upper http://palmettostatearmory.com/2304.php for 529.00 and a complete lower here http://palmettostatearmory.com/1726.php for 239.00 plus 15.00 to ship to your FFL. Add a front and rear MBUS for 80.00 and your good to go. That's a great rifle for 863.00 plus your transfer fee normally 20 or so.

You are getting a milspec 20" with a free float handguard, not a bad price and cheaper then most options with better QC. They also have a cheaper upper here http://palmettostatearmory.com/2522.php that will save you about 70.00 but you lose the free floating hand guard.

I think you would be very happy with either of the options, PSA is building good stuff that is staked properly. Good luck and post pics when you get your new rifle, no matter which options you choose :D

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:09 am
complete 20" stag upper here at midwest industries for $510
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/ind ... ory_id=263

i got my CMMG upper from them, and some forearm rails (fit very good), ...good company..

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:10 am
for long range my setup works well. reliably hitting 21" steel with iron sights at the Appleseed out to 600 yds.

20" Stainless Bull barrel 1:8 twist
Free Float hand guard.
Rock River Arms 2 Stage match trigger (Nice triggers - asy to install on your AR)
Flat top upper with removable carry handle, so I can shoot irons for Camp Perry, or throw on an optic if I so desire.
National Match Sights.

Certainly NOT what you would use for a Defensive carbine class.. (believe me I tried) but great for CMP matches and long range shooting.

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:31 pm
I think I have things narrowed down to the following two options.....

Complete Upper Kit: http://palmettostatearmory.com/8818.php ($560)
+
Stripped Lower: http://palmettostatearmory.com/2072.php ($90 for the Gadsen etching, $80 without)
[A2 stock]
TOTAL: $650/$640

OR

Upper Kit: http://palmettostatearmory.com/2278.php ($410)
+
Lower Kit: http://palmettostatearmory.com/1726.php ($240)
[M4 collapsable stock]
TOTAL: $650

Am I missing anything functionality-wise between these two options (other than a front sight) or are these all I need for a complete rifle?
Last edited by d80buckeye on Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:20 pm
You do realize if you go with option 1 you will also need a lower parts kit..
http://palmettostatearmory.com/1633.php $89.00
or
http://palmettostatearmory.com/8485.php $120.00



and if you plan on doing any long range I would recommend a 2-stage trigger.. http://palmettostatearmory.com/1156.php
For some reason their lower parts kits don't say which ones have the 2 stage trigger and which don't not a lot of detail.. :(

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:42 pm
FS,
Unless I'm missing something all of the trigger assembly and buttstock parts are included in the upper kit. Or am I somehow completely mis-reading and looking at the parts image wrong?
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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:11 am
d80buckeye wrote:
FS,
Unless I'm missing something all of the trigger assembly and buttstock parts are included in the upper kit. Or am I somehow completely mis-reading and looking at the parts image wrong?


usually an upper "kit" includes the following:

- barrel, upper receiver, bolt + carrier, charging handle, ..and maybe forearm handguards

..then the stripped lower
- just the lower receiver (basically just a piece of aluminum)

..and the lower parts kit
- the internal components for the stripped lower: trigger, trigger guard, roll pins for assy, springs, buffer tube and spring, and other pins/ etc.. sometimes includes a stock.

EDIT: ok, i see that "kit" from palmetto state armory, looks like it is the upper components plus the lower parts kit - so to answer your question, if you go that route, you'd just need to buy that particular "kit" and buy the stripped lower to get everything you need.

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:20 am
..also, just some more FYI info..

when looking for "uppers",

- ..an "assembled" upper means the barrel comes attached to the upper receiver, and gas system plumbing is complete - i.e. no "gunsmithing" needed on your end - this is my prefered approach :)

- otherwise, one that doesn't come "assembled" will require you to do the smithing to properly affix the barrel to the receiver, and doing the gas system plumbing, including afixing front gas block...

sometimes you can find "assembled" lowers as well..

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Post subject: Re: Also interested in a black rifle
Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:04 pm
I see now.. I had scripting disabled so it wasn't loading the descriptions for the "kits" .

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