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Post subject: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:57 am
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-v ... /#reliable


I mean WOW................just one snippet, but comparing bore wear at 10,000 rounds between federal gilding metal jackets and wolf and other bimetal or steel jacket ammo.


Quote:
As indicated by accuracy testing, the steel cased/bimetal jacketed ammunition caused accelerated wear to the inside of their respective bores. While the barrel of the Federal carbine had plenty of life left, even after 10,000 rounds at extremely high rates of fire, the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels were subjected to the same rates of fire and were completely “shot out” by 6,000 rounds.

At the end of the test, the chrome lining of the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels was almost gone from the throat forward, and the barrels had effectively become smoothbores, with the rifling near the muzzles acting only as a mild suggestion on the projectiles. A throat erosion gauge could be dropped into the bore from the muzzle end with absolutely no resistance.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:06 am
Very interesting! Thanks!

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:25 pm
I did hear from a well versed firearms expert that I trust that this really is not significant unless it was a milspec barrel, which many (even some chrome lined ones) are not.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:25 pm
what exactly is a "millspec barrel"? they said it had 5.56 chamber.

in any event since they used identical guns I think the results have merit for relative difference.
it's apparent that brass ammo not only had zero malfunctions but the copper jacket was much easier on the rifling.

Perhaps the malfunctions are do to other circumstances besides the material the case is made out of.
maybe it just so happens that the cheaper steel cased ammo uses a weaker charge or something.

but I think this lays to rest any argument that the bi-metal (copper plated steel) jacket is not harsher on the rifling.
I personally found the test to be quite well done and legitimate.

Now the steel cased stuff IS cheaper, but how far ahead do you come out by shooting it and replacing your barrel more often?
I guess you'll have to do the math your self.

Personally I don't touch steel cased ammo, The only guns I'll run it in is my hi-points.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:00 pm
Joe Sixpack wrote:
what exactly is a "millspec barrel"? they said it had 5.56 chamber.

in any event since they used identical guns I think the results have merit for relative difference.
it's apparent that brass ammo not only had zero malfunctions but the copper jacket was much easier on the rifling.

Perhaps the malfunctions are do to other circumstances besides the material the case is made out of.
maybe it just so happens that the cheaper steel cased ammo uses a weaker charge or something.

but I think this lays to rest any argument that the bi-metal (copper plated steel) jacket is not harsher on the rifling.
I personally found the test to be quite well done and legitimate.

Now the steel cased stuff IS cheaper, but how far ahead do you come out by shooting it and replacing your barrel more often?
I guess you'll have to do the math your self.

Personally I don't touch steel cased ammo, The only guns I'll run it in is my hi-points.



To mean "milspec" means that it meets all military specifications as to material, heat treat, plating, etc.

The guy I know who is in the know said they had some mil barrels that rockwell tested good on the outside but turned to "silly putty" internally during required live fore testing.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:45 pm
most real accuracy shooters figure on replacing a barrel by the time it]s had 5000 rds thru it. In normal times, the 5c or so of savings per shot, easily pays for a new barrel and installation ( as simple as it is on an AR) by the time you fir 5000 rds, too. but it's silly to not reload. If you can't figure out how to run a $200 (on ebay ) BIG progressive reloading press, at 600 or so rds per hour, hth can you be trusted with a gun? The Lee progressive can be set up to function as a single station press, while you are first learning, too. So there's no reason, really, to be using steel cases or steel jacketed bullets in a rifle that you care about.
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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:13 am
tweez wrote:
If you can't figure out how to run a $200 (on ebay ) BIG progressive reloading press, at 600 or so rds per hour, hth can you be trusted with a gun? The Lee progressive can be set up to function as a single station press, while you are first learning, too.

You've never reloaded a single round, have you?

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:45 pm
jabeatty wrote:
tweez wrote:
If you can't figure out how to run a $200 (on ebay ) BIG progressive reloading press, at 600 or so rds per hour, hth can you be trusted with a gun? The Lee progressive can be set up to function as a single station press, while you are first learning, too.

You've never reloaded a single round, have you?



+1

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:29 pm
tweez wrote:
most real accuracy shooters figure on replacing a barrel by the time it]s had 5000 rds thru it.


Tweez, this statement is not accurate. I've been working in the precision rifle community for 15 years. Two things that need to be taken into account for a barrel to be replaced is; Caliber and number of rounds fired. After that we also have to consider cleaning regiment and heat.

Concerning caliber, 223/556 will last 8K-10K rounds, 308 10k-12k rounds, 300wm 4k-5k rounds, 7wsm less than 1500 rounds. All of this is under normal conditions. Slow fire, a typical cleaning regiment.

Cleaning regiment is often overlooked. When I left the Marine Corps I treated my self to a DD Ross built M40A3. This M40A3 was built to USMC spec and I essentially ruined the barrel by cleaning it every 20-40rds. I have also known guys to ruin barrels or take thousands of rounds off of the life expectancy by the over use of copper cleaners like Sweets 762. Now I clean the chamber and bore every 500 rounds on most weapons and have had no issues.

Heat is another big killer. Attend a tactical match and the guys shooting 243, 260, 7wsm and 300wm cringe when there is a stage of fire that blows 20+ rounds in a few minutes. This is because they know that high volume of fire creates heat that is similar to shooting 200-300 rounds. On an M4/AR15 the chrome lined barrels deal with this heat a little better so rapid fire or full auto doesn't kill them. We have two M4s at work that have had a lot of full auto and rapid fire range days. They are at 8k rounds and still shooting 2MOA groups. We also have two basic AR15A3 that are just over 10k rounds and are still at 2MOA. All four of these rifles need new barrels but they show the possible life expectancy of service weapons.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:04 pm
jabeatty wrote:
tweez wrote:
If you can't figure out how to run a $200 (on ebay ) BIG progressive reloading press, at 600 or so rds per hour, hth can you be trusted with a gun? The Lee progressive can be set up to function as a single station press, while you are first learning, too.

You've never reloaded a single round, have you?


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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:17 pm
willbird wrote:
Joe Sixpack wrote:
what exactly is a "millspec barrel"? they said it had 5.56 chamber.

in any event since they used identical guns I think the results have merit for relative difference.
it's apparent that brass ammo not only had zero malfunctions but the copper jacket was much easier on the rifling.

Perhaps the malfunctions are do to other circumstances besides the material the case is made out of.
maybe it just so happens that the cheaper steel cased ammo uses a weaker charge or something.

but I think this lays to rest any argument that the bi-metal (copper plated steel) jacket is not harsher on the rifling.
I personally found the test to be quite well done and legitimate.

Now the steel cased stuff IS cheaper, but how far ahead do you come out by shooting it and replacing your barrel more often?
I guess you'll have to do the math your self.

Personally I don't touch steel cased ammo, The only guns I'll run it in is my hi-points.



To mean "milspec" means that it meets all military specifications as to material, heat treat, plating, etc.

The guy I know who is in the know said they had some mil barrels that rockwell tested good on the outside but turned to "silly putty" internally during required live fore testing.


BINGO. Also I would say 70-90% of problems peoples AR's have with Steel Case is related to the rifles specs and not the ammo. They used bushmaster for crying out loud, they have some of the worst QC. Do this test with BCM, COLT's, DD, ect and then you have a solid platform to build off of. My "SOLD" Colt 6920 had over 8K though it and the barrel was still in good shape with nearly 75% of the rounds being steel cased. Non milspec rifles have a list of QC problems that can be a good reason for a number of their malfunctions. Just for starters, incorrect gas port size, incorrect chamber, poor barrel quality, non staked gas keys, poorly made parts. I can almost promise with certainty that those rifles specs do not match one another. That just for starters. There is a reason you pay $ for the milspec rifles, and my LMT rifle I own has seen almost 4K of steel case ammo and not a single problem related to the ammo. It is hard to take their test seriously when you are using low end platforms that are designed for range plinking and very few ever will see these round counts to begin with. Start with a serious AR if your going to test reliability of X brand of ammo to see how well they operate over that many rounds. It is like me testing out what several performance brand tires looking for the best track tire, yet my testing bed is with a mini van, your leaving open a ton of variables that can easily change the outcome of the test.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:24 pm
i for one do not have the luxuray of being a reloader at the moment
not to mention the cost of a good set up
but the fact that it is illegal to have lose powder and certian plumbing hardware
under the same roof (amungst other things) found in a home repair specialists tool box.

maybe someday if i get rich i can stop being mr. fixit and be a real balistics cono sur'

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:54 am
calemus wrote:
the fact that it is illegal to have lose powder and certian plumbing hardware
under the same roof (amungst other things) found in a home repair specialists tool box.

Huh? Could you elaborate - I'm aparently unaware of something you seem to know about in this regard...

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:39 am
I think what they mean is that if you have a lot of small lenghs of pipe and some gun powder they could try to argue it as pipe bomb making material and use oh what's that stupid legal term they use when they want to bend you over but don't actually have any proof of wrong doing... oh ya constructive possession.

Im not sure how true his statement is though I mean many people have extra plumbing and building material in their garages.

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Post subject: Re: WOW steel case ammo vs domestic torture test
Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 am
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I think what they mean is that if you have a lot of small lenghs of pipe and some gun powder they could try to argue it as pipe bomb making material and use oh what's that stupid legal term they use when they want to bend you over but don't actually have any proof of wrong doing... oh ya constructive possession.

Im not sure how true his statement is though I mean many people have extra plumbing and building material in their garages.

Gotcha, yeah, wasn't thinking of that. Does make you wonder though - if the ATF or other TLA (that's Three Letter Agency for the uninitiated) got a wild hair and decided to go after someone, if they had reloading compnents and a few pieces of plumbing supplies, it wouldn't surprise me to see them listed as "materials for making pipe bombs"... :shock:

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