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Post subject: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:10 am
I am contemplating adding an Aimpoint to my S&W AR, and have a question I would appreciate some feedback on.

So what is the difference / advantages & disadvantages of the Micro T1 versus the H1 Micro - and 4 MOA versus 2 MOA?

It appears there is a $100 difference (lower) for the H1 - 4 MOA, but as a layman I can't discern a feature difference. I ask because if there is a good reason to go for the more expensive T1... I would like to at least consider it, having already committed to paying that much for a hobby sight.

THANKS a lot.

the Friar
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:45 pm
The T-1 is night vision equipment compatible and a 4 MOA dot will be twice as large as a 2 MOA dot. Depending on the distances you intend to shoot and your eyesight, the MOA size could make appreciable difference. I have the Aimpoint PRO with 2 MOA and the dot is very small but doesn't obscure the target. Hope this helps...
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:35 pm
@cadGUY - Thanks! So, if you were say mid-50's (meaning my eyes still work but sure aren't what they used to be...), would you lean towards the larger 4 MOA then - or the opposite? I am thinking my Ninja days are behind me as well, so I suppose I don't need the future option of NV... I'll turn the mounted flashlight on for that (CQB). That'll save me $100 right off the bat! Do you use the supplied mount? Someone told me I should use the Larue mount instead. Thanks

the Friar
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:10 pm
Go take a look at the EOTechs as well as the Trijicons, before you spend your money.

The Aimpoints are awesome, don't get me wrong - but the dot sometimes visually blurs for those with eye issues.

This is something that you'll only find out from "behind the gun." Typically, when it comes to the final choice between these non-magnified "red dot"/"reflex" sights, the end-choice becomes one of user-preference, as any of these three manufacturers truly are top-shelf.

That said. :)

If you Googled "dot moa," you'll find that the 4MOA versus 2MOA debate has been ongoing, and likely will never stop. :lol: Some feel that the 4MOA starts to really limit the AR at ~300 yards/meters or so, as it would cover up approx. 12 inches of the target - others feel that it is still very realistic, and that that capability can be better exploited with the optional 3x magnifiers to help with target-ID at-distance.

To get a better "feel" for this for now, without even going to the range, here's an illustration made by Aimpoint, using a hog as the backdrop:

Image

And this is a decent depiction, on an old AR15.com thread - the pertinent pictures appear towards the end of the thread:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 8&t=498770

Dot intensity can also come into play. Turn up the brightness/intensity, and the dot can "fuzz out" (visually, to you, the shooter) towards its edges. This is why you'll see, even at dynamic classes, people adjusting their dot intensity on-the-fly. Also, remember that when you engage your white-light, you may visually "wash-out" the dot, and this may affect how you set your chosen sight and store it (with respect to battery life), too.

I honestly feel that aside from selecting a system (i.e. Aimpoint vs. Trijicon vs. EOTech) that better suits *YOUR* eyes, the other biggest consideration should be how you plan to employ the firearm. At anything less than 200 yards or so, you're going to be just fine with virtually any of these optics, but at greater than that distance, you may well desire an intermediate optic, such as a 1-4x variable, instead.

Considerations such as battery-life/usage as well as switchgear should also come into play in your decision process.

In terms of mounting, the big difference is the absolute versus "lower 1/3rd" co-witness of your (backup) iron-sights. The following video (not mine) offers a great explanation of the difference with these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj3NY2jwDEo

Graphically, this these two choices are represented by:

Image

and

Image

And with respect to the Larue mounts:

Image

^ This is *SORTA* what you can expect.

The RIGHT side "LT660" depiction is accurate for lower 1/3rd co-witness on an AR, but the LEFT side caption is better suited as a depiction of the Larue LT751, which provides proper absolute co-witness on standard ARs (on Larue Tactical's website, you'll see that they've specifically cautioned that the LT660HK will not provide proper absolute co-witness with a standard AR, and is instead specifically designed for the HK-416). Larue's revised illustration is shown here:

Image

In terms of the T-1/H-1 distinction, like CADguy said, the big differences are the nigh-vision (NV) capability with the T-1 that's lacking in the H-1, as well as the water-seal of the T-1. In a recent thread on M4C.net, Mr. Larry Vickers reaffirmed the H-1 for civilian use:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123189

- as you do save significant coin, with the H-1 versus the V-1.

With regard to mounts, the top-tier ones are all very well-made, and plenty durable enough.

Larue's name often pops up because they're a known-quantity: especially if you want quick-detach capability, you'll want a mount that will come back on the gun as close to zero as possible, and when you're paying for the Larues, you're paying for that very important capability.

However, if you're just looking for a non-quick-detach mount, you can again save significant money - Larue's VFZ option usually takes abut $20-$25 off the price of their Q/D mounts, and Daniel Defense also offers a highly-regarded Aimpoint Micro mount that is among the lightest available.



H

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:30 pm
Friar wrote:
@cadGUY - Thanks! So, if you were say mid-50's (meaning my eyes still work but sure aren't what they used to be...), would you lean towards the larger 4 MOA then - or the opposite? I am thinking my Ninja days are behind me as well, so I suppose I don't need the future option of NV... I'll turn the mounted flashlight on for that (CQB). That'll save me $100 right off the bat! Do you use the supplied mount? Someone told me I should use the Larue mount instead. Thanks

Allen (TSiWRX) gave a great summation of the variations one should consider before making the purchase. For me, personally, I have 58 year old eyes and wear progressive bifocals. The 2 MOA is more than visible enough for me although it looks ever-so-slightly elongated to my old eyes - but then so does the laser boresighter at a distance. I use the torque limiting mount that came with the PRO and gives co-witness in the lower 1/3 - looks just like the renderings Allen provided. My son has the Eotech XPS2-0 with the dot and circle and prefers it to my PRO. While I still prefer my PRO, the XPS2-0 works great, too. A key factor that I don't think was mentioned yet is that you should mount it further from your eye on the receiver than you would a magnifying rifle scope. At 1X magnification you keep both eyes open as you place the dot on your target. This also leaves room for a red dot magnifier on your receiver for the more distance shots. As advertised about the PRO, you can keep the lense covers closed (rear one is clear) and still use the sight. Your dominant eye sees the dot in the scope and your brain super-imposes the dot on the target as seen by your non-dominant eye. It's...it's like magic I tell ya'! A plus was the 3 year battery life while left turned on.
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:00 pm
CADguy wrote:
For me, personally, I have 58 year old eyes and wear progressive bifocals. The 2 MOA is more than visible enough for me although it looks ever-so-slightly elongated to my old eyes - but then so does the laser boresighter at a distance.


I have eyes requiring that I wear coke-bottles to see further than my nose. :geek: :lol: I still like the Aimpoint better than my EOTech. :) To be honest, I'd probably have liked the 2 MOA better than my current 4 MOA T-1, but heck, I got the 4 MOA at a good deal, so I'm not complaining. :)

Quote:
A key factor that I don't think was mentioned yet is that you should mount it further from your eye on the receiver than you would a magnifying rifle scope. At 1X magnification you keep both eyes open as you place the dot on your target. This also leaves room for a red dot magnifier on your receiver for the more distance shots. As advertised about the PRO, you can keep the lense covers closed (rear one is clear) and still use the sight. Your dominant eye sees the dot in the scope and your brain super-imposes the dot on the target as seen by your non-dominant eye. It's...it's like magic I tell ya'!


Those are great points, and I'm glad you mentioned them!

The latter trick is indeed just how our eyes work - it's also the principle behind the at-one-point-really-popular "Occluded Eye Gunsight" (the Armson OEG was a good example). It's a neat trick, indeed. 8)

As for placement of the "red-dot"/"Reflex" sight, like CADguy said, Friar, current dogma has us mounting the sight as forward as possible - theoretically, this allows your brain to best superimpose the dot over the target, with your eyes' focus "at infinity," making for the quickest-possible shot. What's even more counter-intuitive is that it doesn't really matter how big or small the diameter of the sight's "tube" or viewing area is, either.

Most shooters currently favor placing the optic somewhere midline-to-forward (towards the muzzle) of the magwell, allowing best balance/weight-distribution to be achieved. This, as CADguy mentioned, also allows for placement of a magnifier or other optic behind the sight (between the optic and your eye). One thing to-note is that often, with this kind of a setup, a folding rear back-up ironsight (BUIS) is necessary to clear the additional optic.

Example (not mine) -

Image

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:21 pm
TSiWRX wrote:
As for placement of the "red-dot"/"Reflex" sight, like CADguy said, Friar, current dogma has us mounting the sight as forward as possible - theoretically, this allows your brain to best superimpose the dot over the target, with your eyes' focus "at infinity," making for the quickest-possible shot. What's even more counter-intuitive is that it doesn't really matter how big or small the diameter of the sight's "tube" or viewing area is, either.

Most shooters currently favor placing the optic somewhere midline-to-forward (towards the muzzle) of the magwell, allowing best balance/weight-distribution to be achieved. This, as CADguy mentioned, also allows for placement of a magnifier or other optic behind the sight (between the optic and your eye). One thing to-note is that often, with this kind of a setup, a folding rear back-up ironsight (BUIS) is necessary to clear the additional optic.

Another reason to keep the red dot sight farther forward is so the frame of the opic won't obscure the field of vision of either of the shooter's eyes. The Eotech's have a considerably wider rectangular frame than the Aimpoints.
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:06 pm
^ Again, excellent. :)

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:22 am
Wow, I can't thank you guys enough - this is a treasure trove of information; thank you!

Paul

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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:42 pm
No need for the thanks - simply glad to share and help, that's all. :)

Oh, one more thing, something that's *VERY* important.

Aimpoints, EOTechs, and many others are so popular and so highly regarded that there's, sadly, counterfeits actively in-circulation and being sold by less-than-honorable individuals/companies. :(

If you see something advertised that's simply too good to be true, in most cases, it probably is.

However, even that said, there are special considerations. Sometimes, the seller just honestly didn't know better: he/she bought a counterfeit as a claimed authentic item from the original seller, and are simply selling it with no purposeful dishonesty. One example of this would be "airsoft clones," where, in the Far-East, they are sought after by airsoft hobbyists (both children and adults) due to their cosmetic authenticity - but are known to be copies and are not sold at the premiums that an actual product would carry. Sometimes, these clones make their way across overseas to us and are sold either outright with dishonesty in mind for fast cash or are unfortunately passed into circulation by those who honestly do not know better. If you intend on purchasing an optic from, for-example, a gun-show, be sure you know what you're getting.

Alternatively, there are instances such as what Botach propagated a couple of years back - where they sold a batch of foreign-contract, new, Aimpoint products here, stateside, at significant discount over then-competitive-retail - misrepresenting (it is still not known if that was truly intentional) the item as "NIB." When a few inevitably incurred damage to their purchased optics and tried to claim warranty, they were denied service due to the fact that the optics were foreign-contract items and were never supposed to have gone into stateside retail circulation.

Both Aimpoint and L-3/EOTech have gone so far as to provide official resources to document some of these concerns:

http://www.eotech-inc.com/counterfeit_notice.php

^ Look at the .pdf document they attached at the end for some good visuals.

http://www.aimpoint.com/products/counte ... s/16-tips/

and

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/367860_.html

^ The AR15.com thread that shows some fake Aimpoints.

These days, there's even copies of branded Noveske and Daniel Defense small parts that originate from overseas. With today's crazy-money market, it pays to be doubly cautious to make sure that you get what you paid for. :)

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:59 pm
Thanks Allen, another excellent point! I sometimes can "go cheap" on certain items, but just think firearms that I might ever remotely need to use for serious purposes is NOT the place. I am looking at opticsplanet via amazon, and the price is market price. I called them direct today to inquire about inventory, and if they also carry the Larue mount. So very good advice indeed.

Based on all the good info, I believe I will go with he 2 MOA Aimpoint H1. I also think the absolute cowitness sounds more comfortable, so will have to budget in another $107 for that.

Can't wait, thanks again for all the help.

Paul

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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:07 pm
Another reason to shop with Larue. Good people.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/0 ... standards/

Quote:
Further proof that Texas is awesome, and every gun company here is as well. Mark LaRue, owner of LaRue Tactical, maker of semi-auto AR-15 rifles that are as accurate as a bolt action and used by law enforcement organizations across the country, just announced via Facebook that he will begin restricting LEO sales to the same level that civilians are able to purchase. So, basically, if you want a LaRue tactical OBR in New York its going to come with a fixed stock, no pistol grip, no flash hider… the works. Even for the police.....

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:08 am
CADguy wrote:
The T-1 is night vision equipment compatible and a 4 MOA dot will be twice as large as a 2 MOA dot. Depending on the distances you intend to shoot and your eyesight, the MOA size could make appreciable difference. I have the Aimpoint PRO with 2 MOA and the dot is very small but doesn't obscure the target. Hope this helps...


Definitely agree, was just discussing this this morning. I love 2MOAs, and shooting at distance becomes a point of contention regarding dot size. Something I've realized along the way is that sometimes the 2MOA may be slower to pick up from a low ready, especially in sunny conditions or in low light with a WML activated. YMMV, just another consideration.

I now use 2MOA C3s exclusively and love the optic and the 2MOA dot. In bright conditions, it does have to be 1 notch brighter than a 4MOA to be picked up quickly. But they really shine (pun intended) at distance, obviously I can see 2x the amount of the target. At 4-500 yards, this matters. If you're ever going to use a 3x, I'd definitely lean more towards the 2MOA options. While the 3x is only on my gun 20% of the time, it's great to have on kit; it gets used as a monocle/spotting optic many times as well.

My current setups, with Aimpoint C3s (2MOA) with 3x. Simple at 1-400, at 400 and beyond it gets challenging.
Image

This SOPMOD-ish clone wears the 3x, as it is much more accurate (14.5" Noveske bbl)
Image
Wearing my Surefire 556-212
Image

View at zoom (400 yards) on 24"x12" silhouette with holdover to correct for drop, windage, and angle.
Image
Last edited by munch520 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:21 am
You've always got the coolest stuff and post tremendously useful info! Thank you! :)

Any time you want to post tech stuff about ARs, I'm all ears (er...eyes?) ! :)

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Aimpoint recommendation?
Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:14 pm
TSiWRX wrote:
:idea: You've always got the coolest stuff and post tremendously useful info! Thank you! :)

Any time you want to post tech stuff about ARs, I'm all ears (er...eyes?) ! :)


Thanks brother

CADguy wrote:
As advertised about the PRO, you can keep the lense covers closed (rear one is clear) and still use the sight. Your dominant eye sees the dot in the scope and your brain super-imposes the dot on the target as seen by your non-dominant eye. It's...it's like magic I tell ya'!


This is how I train with fixed powers, like ACOGs, as well. It helps to reinforce the need to keep the non-dominant eye open (Bindon Aimpoint Concept or BAC).
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