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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:54 pm
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I'd have to reread the article but I believe they said the guns was identical.. so not matched matched parts.
Frankly the guy sounds like he's trying to find as many little things to try and build up into a mountain.

under his logic you could never do a live fire test because the ammo will vary from round to round box even within a single box.

I simply don't think these things add up into invalid results.
The difference was pretty clear.. it's a pretty wide margin to try and tear down by the way he's claiming.
but of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.


He is saying if we go to Gander Mtn and buy four "identical rifles" chances are they are not identical. Maybe you have to know the guy a little better, I have learned a LOT from him, he has many years vast experience in the firearms field especially related to the military and milspec aspects of it.

I have no doubt he saw exactly what he says he saw related to firearms mfg.

But to do a "test" like they did is fine, but the results do not prove anything for the reasons stated. The heavy carbon fouling might be valid........

Bill

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:07 am
I have a hard time believing you can pick up 4 ar15's from the same company and they've all made with different parts unless it is a bottom of the barrel fly by night.

do mfgs sometimes change parts suppliers (assuming its' not done in house) absolutely but to suggest this is the case of rifles coming off the line is ridiculous at least for recognizable brand.

I appreciate that you "know the guy" but the way I see it he's digging up a million reasons as to why this test isn't valid and I frankly don't much care what his opinion is on the test nor on the merits of steels cased/jacketed ammo.

I thought he might have something with the barrel mfg's, Although I'd think that would have to be very budget brand (probably not even chrome lined) mfg's practice.. but Now I think he's just full of it and/or has an agenda (bias).

I would have to "know the guy" to take stuff he's saying serious, just talking to someone on the internet wouldn't be enough for the way my BS meter is going off.

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:49 am
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I have a hard time believing you can pick up 4 ar15's from the same company and they've all made with different parts unless it is a bottom of the barrel fly by night.

do mfgs sometimes change parts suppliers (assuming its' not done in house) absolutely but to suggest this is the case of rifles coming off the line is ridiculous at least for recognizable brand.

I appreciate that you "know the guy" but the way I see it he's digging up a million reasons as to why this test isn't valid and I frankly don't much care what his opinion is on the test nor on the merits of steels cased/jacketed ammo.

I thought he might have something with the barrel mfg's, Although I'd think that would have to be very budget brand (probably not even chrome lined) mfg's practice.. but Now I think he's just full of it and/or has an agenda (bias).

I would have to "know the guy" to take stuff he's saying serious, just talking to someone on the internet wouldn't be enough for the way my BS meter is going off.


Well tell me Joe, if you sold a product, and somebody published a "test" that was a poorly constructed experiment (as this was) how would you feel about that ??

Bottom line, it was a poorly constructed experiment, the results are anecdotal not scientific. And this was not just ONE mfg but several where Mr HW Stone (the guy) has had experience in their shop.

And it dovetails neatly with my experience with employment in mfg, I have only seen FIFO (first in first out) used when the customer was an automaker (never did much defense work over the years) otherwise the people I worked for had ZERO way to trace a defect found down the road back to a purchase of material.

"Spare parts".... leftovers from previous runs were carefully tagged and stored away in case you scrapped a part on a future run.....they were tagged as to part number and revision number.... dimensionaly accurate parts but not "like" the rest of the run.

Parts might be set aside for rework, have taps burned out or bores plated to size, again mixed in with the NEXT batch of parts.


NO way in hell is buying 4 Bushmasters and then testing 4 kinds of ammo a scientific experiment....and if the federal had been shown to wear the bores more EVERYBODY would scream "foul"....but we all "know" steel and bimetal projectiles wear bores more so the "experiment" is not questioned when it gives the proper results.

I have stated the facts of the matter, you can disagree all you want, but I have science on my side :-).

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:24 am
willbird wrote:
Well tell me Joe, if you sold a product, and somebody published a "test" that was a poorly constructed experiment (as this was) how would you feel about that ??

I see, So how does this guy fit into that then?
Like I said agenda.

willbird wrote:
Bottom line, it was a poorly constructed experiment, the results are anecdotal not scientific. And this was not just ONE mfg but several where Mr HW Stone (the guy) has had experience in their shop.

So says a guy you know who can't name any mfgs.

willbird wrote:
And it dovetails neatly with my experience with employment in mfg, I have only seen FIFO (first in first out) used when the customer was an automaker (never did much defense work over the years) otherwise the people I worked for had ZERO way to trace a defect found down the road back to a purchase of material.

This is the only thing I can actually see maybe being a valid point if they had a defective batch of barrels intermixed with good ones.
However how you jump from that to saying the barrels are all from different mfgs coming off ht same line of the same company for the same product is absolutely ridiculous.

Bushmaster must be buying their crap off gun broker one barrel at at time :wink:

willbird wrote:
I have stated the facts of the matter, you can disagree all you want, but I have science on my side :-).
Ah if you say so Will, you're entitled to think what you want. :wink:

It would be great if someone like you and your buddy would do a "Scientific" test, Until then I guess we'll have to settle for this highly flawed and meaningless.. oh wait carbon fouling my be valid :roll: test.
You guys will be internet heroes! :D

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:41 pm
I thought the test was pretty good, way better than the typical gun rag write-up with only one firearm example "hand-picked" by the manufacturor to send out to the gun writers. I could see where someone affliated with bushmaster (or the barrel mnfr) subcontractor wouldn't like the results & nitpick them. That doesn't de legitimize the test into the "anecdotal data" only catagory. I know that Bushmaster is up for sale now, so who knows may be this is all bidding strategy shenanigans:


Quote:
Exclusive: Cerberus founder explores bid for Bushmaster gunmaker


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/17/us-freedom-group-idUSBRE93G01620130417

I think the average gun owner would be hard pressed to get a data set like this on thier own, so it is a pretty good perspective. Typically only the military and large LE agencies have the resources & funds to conduct scientific torture tests like this.

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:06 pm
The Lucky Gunner link was a good read, but all the FIFO and other manufacturing issues aside, I defer to the link I had in my original post, since it talks about the nature of the bi-metal case and the rifling's interaction with it.

Bottom line is that the rifling of your typical firearm is deep enough to bite through the copper outer jacket of a bi-metal bullet and into the steel beneath. And steel-on-steel will wear faster than copper-on-steel, no matter how hard one of the steels may be. Sure, your rate of wear will vary based on the hardness of your barrel and such, but it's still going to wear faster.

I think of it like this: there's a reason gunsmiths use hammers and punches that are brass or plastic and not steel.

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:43 pm
gunbunny wrote:
Bottom line is that the rifling of your typical firearm is deep enough to bite through the copper outer jacket of a bi-metal bullet and into the steel beneath. And steel-on-steel will wear faster than copper-on-steel, no matter how hard one of the steels may be. Sure, your rate of wear will vary based on the hardness of your barrel and such, but it's still going to wear faster.



to a point yes .. but the biggest wear factor is the velocity of the bullet and the type of powder getting used ..and the make up of the bullet copper , bi metal , moly coated , nicad coated on and on and on .... a faster bullet has more friction and the powder even the manufacture says non corrosive .. wanna bet some of it is mildly corrosive .. this can be a pissing match like ford vs Chevy

bottom line from some one who has fired millions of rounds the biggest wear factor is bullet velocity down the barrel ....... bottom line fast bullet with rapid fire heat dissipation is the factor of all wear vs a tad slower (same metal bullet) with a few seconds of cool time for the barrel and it will last longer ...

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:17 am
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I have a hard time believing you can pick up 4 ar15's from the same company and they've all made with different parts unless it is a bottom of the barrel fly by night.


Made with different parts? No. Assembled differently with little/no QA? Yes.

I've spoken with a guy who did Army/USCG armory work for years before coming home and doing armorer work privately. This enabled him to contrast issued brands with what he saw domestically, and we've discussed how he had to reassemble and troubleshoot almost 3/4 of some shipments from large manufacturers.

Quality in terms of materials is great, but it doesn't matter if the gun isn't assembled properly.
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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:57 pm
munch520 wrote:
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I have a hard time believing you can pick up 4 ar15's from the same company and they've all made with different parts unless it is a bottom of the barrel fly by night.


Made with different parts? No. Assembled differently with little/no QA? Yes.

I've spoken with a guy who did Army/USCG armory work for years before coming home and doing armorer work privately. This enabled him to contrast issued brands with what he saw domestically, and we've discussed how he had to reassemble and troubleshoot almost 3/4 of some shipments from large manufacturers.

Quality in terms of materials is great, but it doesn't matter if the gun isn't assembled properly.


The article even pointed that out, two of the 4 rifles the barrel nut torque was incorrect. The guy I got the info from is restricted by agreements due to employment, non disclosure, etc. But he said within a batch of barrels from a 6 hour production window several were badly out of spec for a variety of reasons.

The milspec stuff at least is traceable....so if a defect is found it can be tracked back to check parts from the same lot, and you can find the last known GOOD part, and the first good part after the defect.

One way to isolate out any errors in the experiment due to differences in the barrels would be to take the federal barrels (but they cut them up to show sectional views) and fire some qty of steel jacket ammo in them, if they had survived 10k of federal, then were washed out in 2k of steel....you have more anecdotal, but useful information :-).

Bill

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:01 pm
Simply even if I shot out my barrel faster with my steel case ammo, the money I am saving every time I am buying a case worth, even a box of 50. The savings over a few cases pay for the new barrel and any other worn part, there are people who will find any excuse to dislike this type of ammo. I even did for the longest time before I did my own research, the wear it may put on my weapon is well worth the price savings I am getting by shooting it.

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:01 pm
zack991 wrote:
Simply even if I shot out my barrel faster with my steel case ammo, the money I am saving every time I am buying a case worth, even a box of 50. The savings over a few cases pay for the new barrel and any other worn part, there are people who will find any excuse to dislike this type of ammo. I even did for the longest time before I did my own research, the wear it may put on my weapon is well worth the price savings I am getting by shooting it.

what's the price difference on .223?
I Know in 9mm (only caliber I've tried steal) the price difference is not that great, .50 - 1.00 (per 50)
That break down to a 1 or 2 cent per round savings.. not hardly enough considering brass cased ammo can also be reloaded.

(Ok so some of the steal stuff can be reloaded, seen it done, but most people won't)

Only guns i'll shoot steal 9mm thru is my hi-points.
lifetime warranty and not to bothered by extra wear on them.

If I don't care about saving the brass and just want to save a few cents I think CCI Blazer is good stuff.

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:33 am
Joe Sixpack wrote:
zack991 wrote:
Simply even if I shot out my barrel faster with my steel case ammo, the money I am saving every time I am buying a case worth, even a box of 50. The savings over a few cases pay for the new barrel and any other worn part, there are people who will find any excuse to dislike this type of ammo. I even did for the longest time before I did my own research, the wear it may put on my weapon is well worth the price savings I am getting by shooting it.

what's the price difference on .223?
I Know in 9mm (only caliber I've tried steal) the price difference is not that great, .50 - 1.00 (per 50)
That break down to a 1 or 2 cent per round savings.. not hardly enough considering brass cased ammo can also be reloaded.

(Ok so some of the steal stuff can be reloaded, seen it done, but most people won't)

Only guns i'll shoot steal 9mm thru is my hi-points.
lifetime warranty and not to bothered by extra wear on them.

If I don't care about saving the brass and just want to save a few cents I think CCI Blazer is good stuff.


A case. (1,000rounds)
Of M855 will run you around 660 plus shipping 70cents per round.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket

Even non steel core rounds will cost you a pretty penny.
XM193 is running 547.00 a case at 55 cents a round.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket



Gold bear .223 is running 397 plus shipping. 40 cents per round. Prior to the panic buying I could get it for 30 cents and sometimes even less. As for being able to reload, you can reloaded them just fine, you have to modify the primer pocket. YouTube has video how to videos on it. I know I can find better price on this even lower but I am at work on a iPhone searching.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:56 am
Overall the study showed me the cheapest thing to do really is buy a couple spare barrels, and shoot them some predetermined number of rounds with the cheapest ammo that shoots good enough for you...then sell them as "lightly used".

Bill

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:31 pm
zack991 wrote:
A case. (1,000rounds)
Of M855 will run you around 660 plus shipping 70cents per round.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket

Even non steel core rounds will cost you a pretty penny.
XM193 is running 547.00 a case at 55 cents a round.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket



Gold bear .223 is running 397 plus shipping. 40 cents per round. Prior to the panic buying I could get it for 30 cents and sometimes even less. As for being able to reload, you can reloaded them just fine, you have to modify the primer pocket. YouTube has video how to videos on it. I know I can find better price on this even lower but I am at work on a iPhone searching.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... tal-jacket
are those savings typical? even pre panic?
Because I don't stock any .223 so I don't know.

Also as far as reloading, primer pocket aside (actually I've seen some of them boxer primed)
But many will not for fear of extra wear or damage to dies.

Do you reload? do you reload Steel cases?

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Post subject: Re: Steel cased ammo... a little research
Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:39 pm
willbird wrote:
Overall the study showed me the cheapest thing to do really is buy a couple spare barrels, and shoot them some predetermined number of rounds with the cheapest ammo that shoots good enough for you...then sell them as "lightly used".

Bill


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