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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:10 am
James:

Didn't know that....

These appeared to have primers and powder, and the molded projectile was supposed to pop clear of the casing and head down the barrel. Wish I knew what I did with them....

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:45 am
SMMAssociates wrote:
These appeared to have primers and powder, and the molded projectile was supposed to pop clear of the casing and head down the barrel. Wish I knew what I did with them....

Don't get me wrong - that ammo actually functions, and it's usually capable of hitting paper at 100 yards. It's nothing you'd want to be shot with either... but it's also nothing like the real thing.

Most of the large surplus ammo places had that stuff in stock until the big Obama sellout cleaned 'em out.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:58 pm
James:

I don't think I saw any of it anywhere except the samples I had.... But that doesn't make you wrong :D....

The co-worker also thought that some local "leaders" who were deceased had faked their own deaths and were living in FL. He needed repairs.... I think he showed up at work drunk once too often....

I expect we'll be able to get some lead from Mexico or some other third-world country for a while, until Zero figures that out, but the prices will go up.

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Stu

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:47 pm
Glad this thread was brought back to life!

ApexShootingTactics.......Hope your still pay'in attention to this thread. I've been using the International green elite ammo.(.45acp, 155gr....both flat points and hollow points), in my Springfield XDs.....(its what I carry now). All my .45s seem to run fine using it and seems, in my opinion, to not have the recoil that some of the 185gr. loads I was use'in before. A local gun shop/indoor shooting range in my area sells it and uses it there. When I started use'in it, it was price wise, a little more expensive than common 185gr. RN but cheaper than self-defense specific ammo. Seemingly less recoil and the lack of 185gr. ammo on the shelves lead me to try it.

Back when I started use'in it, I asked about it on another forum but got no replies there, so since you mentioned them here, I'd like to know how the hollow points(tin based) perform as opposed to a more common hollow point, lead based bullet? Just thought I'd ask.
Thanks.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:41 am
From the studies if seen lead is'nt a issue in top soil.. the lead will expand a bit due to oxidation but does not really go anywhere and stays put.. now if you had a underground stream running right thru the range maybe.. but a lot of the environmentalist are blowing smoke up peoples rear ends, But Im sure a lot of you already know that.

Don't get me wrong though, I care about the environment, If it was really doing harm i'd be on the anti-lead band wagon but it's completely hyped up.

I don't have anything else to add that hasn't been covered already.. except that sooner or later I imagine factory lead ammo will be a thing of the past.. eventually they'll probably mandate it under federal law.

SMMAssociates wrote:
James:

Didn't know that....

These appeared to have primers and powder, and the molded projectile was supposed to pop clear of the casing and head down the barrel. Wish I knew what I did with them....

Regards,


He's right, Im not sure what you had but there was plastic rounds that was used for practice indoors..
When I say Indoors I mean IN HOUSE.. quite litterly used to turn your hall way into a shooting range.
The only ones I have ever seen was in 38spl.. They was meant to be reusable and only used a primer, no powder
A heavy blanket/sheet, etc could be used as a backdrop to catch the bullet.

You might have had something else though.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:33 am
Joe:

I had a handful of those "primer-only" practice .38's years ago. I thought I gave them to the CHL instructors in 2004, but the primers are still here :D.... At the time, there were two types. One fired a soft rubber or plastic projectile, and likely would just be annoying. The other fired a solid PVC or Nylon projectile, and at 30' was capable of punching a hole in eighth-inch fiberglass sheet material (want to see the holes? :D). Accuracy in a 6" S&W M19 was pretty good.

I wouldn't recommend it, but the soft-projectile version was probably about as dangerous as Airsoft rounds. Eye protection and all that. The hard-plastic projectiles, OTOH, probably were pretty wicked. A little powder in there and LOOOKOOOOUT.... (I ought to try that :D.)

I used a cardboard box for a backup. Other than a few misses ( :D ), more than adequate for either type.

You could also get (or even make) some wax bullets. (Fairly popular in 1968 or thereabouts.) These required a bit of powder if I remember it adequately. You could load 'em up to nominally lethal capacities, although it'd take some bad luck on the victim's part to be more than badly hurt.

(I never tried that.... Hm.... :D)

The stuff I had (at least in prior discussion in this thread) was a genuine military round - I'm thinking .30Cal - which was basically a one-piece molded thing with powder and a primer added later. Somehow, the projectile part would break off and go downrange. Not reloadable, but the stuff was very light.

I lived here before dad kicked me out in 1972. The basement workshop is now my reloading area, and I built an office outside of that area (borrowed one wall) when the wife and I moved in to help mom in 2009. (Mom promptly decided to Winter in El Paso and never bothered to come back. Must have been my cooking :D....)

Man cave, if the fool recliner would recline. Someday I'll fix it....

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:36 pm
3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:
Glad this thread was brought back to life!

ApexShootingTactics.......Hope your still pay'in attention to this thread. I've been using the International green elite ammo.(.45acp, 155gr....both flat points and hollow points), in my Springfield XDs.....(its what I carry now). All my .45s seem to run fine using it and seems, in my opinion, to not have the recoil that some of the 185gr. loads I was use'in before. A local gun shop/indoor shooting range in my area sells it and uses it there. When I started use'in it, it was price wise, a little more expensive than common 185gr. RN but cheaper than self-defense specific ammo. Seemingly less recoil and the lack of 185gr. ammo on the shelves lead me to try it.

Back when I started use'in it, I asked about it on another forum but got no replies there, so since you mentioned them here, I'd like to know how the hollow points(tin based) perform as opposed to a more common hollow point, lead based bullet? Just thought I'd ask.
Thanks.


3 Full Mags, We do not use their duty rounds, just the training ammo. I am not aware of any agency out there who uses their duty ammo. From my experience, and this is not scientific, most agencies are using Gold Dot, HST or TAP for their duty ammo.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:36 am
Andrew:

It's likely that most agencies will carry whatever they picked "long ago" until one of the chairborne rangers changes his mind, or they are forced to pick something else by the Feds. If you ignore the Feds massive purchases a little while back, training ammunition is a small part of most local PD budgets if you're not talking about LAPD or NYPD. I expect they'll switch that if asked gently.

The real problem is "us" - reloaders, SD shooters, etc. We likely will always be able to find suitable SD loads if we can stand the price, and maybe enough more to get some practice with, but for general paper-killing and the other stuff we do with some regularity (including your range :D), it's going to get very expensive, if not impossible....

I expect we'll see foreign sources of lead, but I'd be surprised if they don't gouge us. That's if Zero and his fellow travelers don't find a way to stop it entirely.

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:15 am
Stu, I disagree. Most agencies are making informed decisions on their duty ammo. ATK runs ballistic seminars for LE several times a year. They bring a dozen guns, a bunch of ammo, coolers full of ballistic gelatin, a huge selection of common medians (glass, dry wall, various clothing). They also invite the attendees to bring any ammo, caliber and weapon they would like to test.

Rounds are fired with a chronograph in use at ballistic gel, the penetration, permanent wound channel is measured, the round is retrieved and weighed. This test is repeated in numerous scenarios with various glass medians and various layers of clothing. Most people do not understand how easy it is for basic clothing like single layers of t-shirt, sweatshirt and denim can clog a hollow point to the extent it does not expand. This is the big difference between most rounds, their ability to gain the industry standard of 14 inches of penetration and expand 100% with as much weight retention as possible.

I have attended a dozen of these seminars of the years and Gold Dot pistol ammo always out performs the competition. For most agencies, budget is the big issue. Gold Dot is expensive but you get what you pay for.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:34 am
I'll have to check the rules again but I don't think you're allowed to disagree with Stu. :shock:

Gold Dot has always been my carry ammo. It really doesn't look like something you would want to be shot with.

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:52 pm
Joel:

Andrew's allowed to disagree with me. I just forward his address to Rich and.... :mrgreen:

Andrew:

There are a lot of PD's out there who decide on price, or "what the Chief likes", or similarly useful criteria. I'm happy to see that you're finding otherwise. My information may be outdated :D....

That said, what they use for practice may be in the "you bought what?!" category.

Another thing is the recent Government buy-outs of available ammunition. I'm not sure that this really is the total reason for the shortage, but training with the high-priced spread (good JHP's, for example) is kind of silly. OTOH, with the Zeroes that Zero has appointed to some administrative posts, they may just not realize it.

(Another thought - the body count at a demonstration is less significant than the order book afterwards :mrgreen: ....)

However, if these guys are buying, super!

Regards,

Stu

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Post subject: Re: New Army ammo: better, stronger, greener
Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:04 pm
Thanks, Apex, for the reply, really just wanted to know how they(hollow points) performed, as I use them now.

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