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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:27 am
buildit wrote:
I visited three different stores with ranges this weekend and every one of them had a one box limit per customer of what they had left. Even one of the stores with no range was selling a two box limit. I know it sucks but I think they are trying to stop hoarding of ammo that they have left. The fact they piss off some customers enables more customers to continue to use the range and practice.
We are all feeling shorted right now but don't let the actions of our tyrannical government turn us against each other. Otherwise they win and we suffer even worse. If you need 380 ammo Old English in Troy had cases near the entrance of blazer 380 target ammo. :wink: I was looking for 9mm but they were totally sold out. :(


I appreciate the tip but the ammo isn't a big deal. I was heading to my range after that trip and just figured I'd get a box. I probably won't have a chance to shoot again any time soon and by then hopefully I'll have a few hundred rounds loaded up for a fraction of the price. Their disregard for customers (well, because it was me) is the only thing I'm upset about. I mentioned it here and I'll mention it in my class this Sunday and that's it, moving on. :D

Joel
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:37 am
I totally understand. This has become a bad situation for everyone. I just hope the madness ends soon and prices and supplies return to normal levels. In any case only cooler heads will prevail and I'm lucky I have good shooting friends to vent with so I definitely am sympathising with you and just trying to provide some outside the box thinking. :egrin:

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:48 am
Yeppers! Same thing at Miami Valley Shooting Range in Springfield Saturday. Luckily we had plenty of ammo and didn't need to buy any, but it was one box per customer. I think some folks had showed up planning on buying ammo there and were a bit upset. Still, it made for a quick turn over on the lane wait time. We were there 2 hours. I shot about 150 rounds through my Sig 556. Got the Red Dot dialed in.

This will pass. It's a pain in the rear right now, but ammo and guns will fill the selves in due time. Manufactures are probably at full speed, with OT trying to get the product out and cash in on the rush. It is certainly a sellers market out there now!!!

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:40 am
His main problem wasn't the 1 box limit, but that they would not sell him "practice" ammo unless he joined the range.

While I support the right of a business to sell how they want, this policy shows a lack of regard for customers who could not afford to buy the ammo with the mandatory membership and/or range fees attached.

For many of us "practice" ammo IS "self defense" ammo, because it's what we can afford.

Let's know what we're talking about here, ideas have consequences.
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:05 am
Im with JBeatty on this one. My product, Ill do as I wish with it... dont like it, dont buy it ... heck, dont like it build another blackwing across the street. I mean honestly ask yourself ... are you going to drive an extra hour to go to another range over a box of ammo? If you are, maybe your not the clientel they want at their range? On top of that, your making a big stink over it as a moderator on the internet, not to mention on the very site (BFA) that blackwing donates money and products to, for the BFA bash and buckeye firearms association/foundation.

I know why people are rationing these, its because folks come in expecting to pay retail from 4 months ago and buy up the whole shelf so they can go sell it at gunshows and on the internet. Otherwise, you prob wouldnt have even been able to walk out with the one box you where able to get your hands on.
Last edited by AaronM on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:33 am
When you get a cart at the golf course they don't usually let you take it home, either... even though you payed for it. :wink:
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:43 pm
CADguy wrote:
When you get a cart at the golf course they don't usually let you take it home, either... even though you payed for it. :wink:


You paid for a "cart rental", not the cart itself. Not a valid comparison. A closer comparison would be playing paintball as most paintball ranges will not allow you to bring your own balls to guarantee extra income as well as for safety purposes.

Aaron, regarding your entire post you a correct - your product, do with it as you wish but make it clear to the buying public that it is for members and range rentals only. Don't place it in plain sight and set people up for frustration.

Now trying to tie in the fact that Joel is a forum moderator and that BlackWing donates to the BFA and he should keep his mouth shut about an issue.... :lol:
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:12 pm
AaronM wrote:
If you are, maybe your not the clientel they want at their range?

What kind are they looking for?

AaronM wrote:
On top of that, your making a big stink over it as a moderator on the internet, not to mention on the very site (BFA) that blackwing donates money and products to, for the BFA bash and buckeye firearms association/foundation.

So because he moderates the board he's not allowed to have an opinion?
No, Wait let me fix that, He's not allowed to express any negative opinion?
I didn't read anything about BFA, He was complaining as a customer.

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:13 pm
Pretty sure I have the right to complain about bad service. It's not like I'm going to the media to complain and make them change their policy. They have the right to do as they wish and I have the choice to take my money somewhere else.

Of course this has nothing to do with bfa. Just a post about my frustration at a gun shop yesterday.

Joel
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CCC Range committee and Lake committee
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:31 pm
Here's my 2 cents...

According to Google Maps, I live exactly 98.9 miles from Blackwing, so it's not somewhere I'd even consider going to shoot. But I am somewhat familiar with the place and know it has an upscale, sort of hoity-toity reputation, which is fine with me--there's room for everybody in the shooting sports--even if it's not my sort of place.

Assuming ammunition doesn't come with stipulations regarding retail sale from the manufacturers or distributors, it seems to me the retailer has the right to determine the manner and method of sale, so long as he isn't breaking some other law by, say, refusing to sell to blacks or Asians or what have you.

I realize the US no longer ranks terribly high in the world when it comes to the ease of starting/running a business, but we still have largely a free market economy, which means people can and will charge what the market will bear and they are free to determine how they will run their business.

I don't have any idea where the main revenue center is at Blackwing, but I'd guess memberships are important to their overall balance sheet. They certainly have a large capital investment in land and buildings that are solely or primarily dedicated to shooting ranges, indoor and out, so membership sales surely must be an important revenue source. Much like season tickets at pro sporting venues, memberships provide a known revenue floor for each year and make you less susceptible to the vagaries of the marketplace for four quarters.

Does it make sense to spend $175 or $300 a year just so you can buy a box of $15 range ammo there at a 5% discount? Hardly. But if you shoot a lot there, a 50% reduction in range fees is not insignificant. If you're a member who shoots there regularly it makes perfect sense that they would keep ammo in stock for you, since you're a "preferred" customer.

But regardless of the economics, as a business they have every right to give their members special treatment, because membership is part of their business model. They violate no laws that I'm aware of by doing this. It's their business, their rules. You're free to play by their rules or take your business elsewhere.

Should they put up a sign letting everyone know what the rules are during this period of shortages? If I were running the business I surely would. I'd post it prominently on the front door so everybody knew where they stood.

<RANT>

The real story here is the panic buying that's making everybody crazy. I simply refuse buy any guns or ammo during this period of market frenzy. If normal market forces prevail, high prices should dampen demand and prices will level off and then fall.

Who needs de jure gun control when the panic you've induced has created de facto gun control.

</RANT>

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:32 pm
NRAInstructor wrote:
Pretty sure I have the right to complain about bad service. It's not like I'm going to the media to complain and make them change their policy. They have the right to do as they wish and I have the choice to take my money somewhere else.

Of course this has nothing to do with bfa. Just a post about my frustration at a gun shop yesterday.


Im not saying you dont have the right to have an opinion. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Bashing companies who help BFA/BFF with their goals is certainly not beneficial to everyone, especially over trivial things. While the "honorary" moderator status seems like nothing, just a title, it will be looked upon as representing BFA/BFF. Every time you include a company name in a post that post ends up on the search engines. When someone types in the company name, this will be one of the results they encounter.

While Im sure your upset with how you where not able to buy a single box of ammo, as most of us are with the "panic" .. one has to look at the bigger picture. Blackwing has donated more than most of us combined to the NRA & BFF every year at their banquets and bashes. They have been a staunch supporter of our 2a and continue to do so. To divide us as gun owners is exactly what the antis want, lets no longer play into their hands.

If you have a complaint with a company .. tell them first. Dont run off to the first corner and yell at the public "foul". Im sure if you called or wrote a letter, you would have gotten a reason and an appology for any inconvenience.

Just as your post is your opinion, this is mine. Take it for what its worth... Im just trying to see the bigger picture and hope you will join me with the same vision in the future. :mrgreen:
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:20 pm
Quote:
The real story here is the panic buying that's making everybody crazy. I simply refuse buy any guns or ammo during this period of market frenzy. If normal market forces prevail, high prices should dampen demand and prices will level off and then fall.


That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I know a couple small FFL dealers that can order things for me. If I decide to buy anything gun related in the next year or so that can't be ordered online I will go through them. I have a reloading bench so I can make my own ammo.

It's more an overall frustration with the current market than anything, but having something and refusing to sell it to certain people is a new twist I haven't seen and wasn't expecting. It caught me off guard.

I've been in there a handful of times and always thought it was a nice shop. But, because I'm stubborn, they lost my business. I didn't say nobody should ever go there again- I said I won't.

The purpose of this thread was to give any possible ammo shoppers from here a heads up and so I could vent, that's it.

Joel
NRA Certified Instructor,Member and Recruiter
Centerburg Conservation Club Trustee
CCC Range committee and Lake committee
Second Call Defense Recruiter

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:23 pm
CamdenMike wrote:
<RANT>

The real story here is the panic buying that's making everybody crazy. I simply refuse buy any guns or ammo during this period of market frenzy. If normal market forces prevail, high prices should dampen demand and prices will level off and then fall.

Who needs de jure gun control when the panic you've induced has created de facto gun control.

</RANT>

Looks like uncle Sam isn't helping the situation.


Image

IS THE GOVERNMENT CREATING A SHORTAGE OF AMMUNITION FOR PRIVATE CITIZENS & LAW ENFORCEMENT?

Did the government intentionally and strategically create a shortage of ammunition?

It appears so.

And for what reason?

Agencies such as "Homeland Security" and strangely even the Social Security Administration, have been hoarding ammo for months, and yet your local police agency is having trouble, as are the citizens, having trouble getting it.

In April, Business Insider reported on an additional DHS request for 750 million more rounds for a total of at least 1.2 billion bullets. The 750 million alone for DHS is more than 10 times what U.S. troops used in a full year of Iraqi combat.

What purpose would it serve for our government to intentionally create a shortage of ammunition?

FROM THE ARTICLE:
Will the U.S. soon face a critical situation in which the federal government– primarily the Department of Homeland Security – possesses an ammunition surplus while local and state authorities face ammunition shortages and backlogs in purchasing more rounds?

Current trends could find the federal government with a strong ammunition advantage over local police and sheriff departments.



Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/01/feds-to-hold-ammo-advantage-over-states/#4f30pDoe6pEDylTA.99

(Edited by NRAInstructor) took some of the article out since you quoted the whole thing. :D

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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:37 pm
NRAInstructor wrote:
Quote:
The real story here is the panic buying that's making everybody crazy. I simply refuse buy any guns or ammo during this period of market frenzy. If normal market forces prevail, high prices should dampen demand and prices will level off and then fall.


That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I know a couple small FFL dealers that can order things for me. If I decide to buy anything gun related in the next year or so that can't be ordered online I will go through them. I have a reloading bench so I can make my own ammo.

It's more an overall frustration with the current market than anything, but having something and refusing to sell it to certain people is a new twist I haven't seen and wasn't expecting. It caught me off guard.

I've been in there a handful of times and always thought it was a nice shop. But, because I'm stubborn, they lost my business. I didn't say nobody should ever go there again- I said I won't.

The purpose of this thread was to give any possible ammo shoppers from here a heads up and so I could vent, that's it.



I get that! I cant say im innocent of never venting. =) I hope you dont think I was talking down to you, it was never my intention. After meeting you I believe your a great guy who's heart is in the right place. I think we both are frustrated with todays times. Lets stick together? So lets all put our hands in the middle of our huddle .. ready!? "GOOO TEAM :!: " :mrgreen:
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Post subject: Re: Blackwing has ammo, but not for you
Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:06 am
buildit wrote:
Image

IS THE GOVERNMENT CREATING A SHORTAGE OF AMMUNITION FOR PRIVATE CITIZENS & LAW ENFORCEMENT?


I don't buy the conspiracy theories.

Why?

Because your neighbor and fellow shooter is literally the one causing the ammo shortage. :lol:

How?

Let's take into account just this one scenario: that of a bigger/more rigorous three-day training class. Average round-count for students attending Chris Costa's Costa Ludus 3-day handgun classes last summer was right around 2000 rounds per person. With an average class size of 25 shooters, that's 50,000 rounds, right there. His carbine classes tends to burn through a little more ammo, but given that his pistol classes burns through a little less, we'll just say that's average, per class session.

Discounting his "Night Operations" low-light classes, the "7.62 Heavy" classes and the "Shotgun Employment" classes - there's still 34 classes on his 2013 roster, and that comes out to 1,700,000 rounds.

He's just one such operation. There are many, many more spread all across the US.

And this is not counting, of course, any training sessions that these top-tier trainers all host for our police and military personnel.

"The Government" requesting 750 million rounds? I'm glad someone is actually forcing those who are professionally armed to at least somewhat train: case-in-point? NYPD and their rather abysmal marksmanship performances in the publicized incidents last year.

On the civilian side, there are also competition shooters to factor in as well. I don't compete, but I'm a decently serious hobbyist. Two years ago, my first year shooting, I put around 40K rounds of 9mm downrange. I agree, that's excessive, but this year, I was looking at about 20K of 9mm, but towards the last part of the shooting season, various unforeseen problems arose, leading to a loss of nearly 30 hours of training - and me shorting the 20K count by approximately 5K: I don't consider this round-count to be that out-of-the-ordinary.

My main training pistol has over 30K rounds through her. My secondary training pistol is approaching 10K. I've been shooting since late November, 2010.

-Allen
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