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Post subject: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:00 pm
I'm Sure this topic is here somewhere, just need a little help getting there or new info is always welcome. Are assisted open knives considered legal stuff like that, thanks!

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:58 pm
far as I know yes, I tried to research this a year or so back when I traded in my buck folder for a small spring assist..
Frankly I love SA and wouldn't go back, although the SA knives probably would'nt hold up to abuse as well.

From what I've read they're legal because unlike other knifes that are banned like switch blades on a SA 1. you are exerting force on teh blade directly.. not thru mechanical means such a button or slider, and 2. you still have to travel about 1/3rd of the way before the spring will work.

however with that said IANAL and the knife laws in this state not to mention county are a complete mess.

Mine is a 2.5 blade, it was a down size from the 3.5 folder but it's less likely to raise eyebrows, also try to get a knife without a serrated blade, from what I understand a lot of charges dealing with knifes get settled case by case in court.. a Serrated blade is seen as more of a weapon feature then a tool.. a lot of knifes comes with them though and they're useful but are a pita to sharpen.
mine also has a seat belt cutter and a glass breaker although I wonder how well either of those features actually work.

there is too much emphasis given to guns when dealing with the 2a, knives pre-date the musket and are tool and weapon alike.
But for some reason there is not much concern of the sate of laws regulating knives and other weapons. just look at how many laws there are surrounding things like nun chucks and throwing stars.

From what I've read a lot of the laws surrounding switch blades, butterfly knifes, nunchucks, brass knuckles, etc was in response to movies in the 50's depicting them as the weapon of choice for youth gangs.

just as it is now with guns the logic was banning the weapons solved the problem, even if such "weapons" was in common use by non-criminals (apparently switch blades was a common style of knife way back when), or gave little time in discovering what weapons was ACTUALLY in common use by such youth gangs.
They passed new laws based on emotional fear and movies.

We see this today as they try to ban popular ar15's which millions of non criminals own, or .50BMG rifles which are practically never used in crimes.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:18 pm
If you're really concerned, check your LOCAL ordinances - this is where you're going to find the greatest variability.

Enforcement is quite subjective, too.

And as if that's not enough, look at the things that were cited in this OFCC post:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... y#p4196439

It's a real crap-shoot, and I really think that at the crux of the matter lies in the intersection of a lack of state preemption and the subjective/inconsistent enforcement (and a part of this is interpretation) of what is in-print in the books.

Best bet?

A non-locking blade that comes in at well under 2.5 inches (not just cutting edge or even something as exacting as the "blade length" as it is listed by the manufacturer's specifications, but your actual physical measure of where the point ends to where the "blade" disappears under the bolster/scales - remember, might be all good and well that you're legal by the text of the law under manufacturer's specs, but that roadside or curbside interview is *NOT* where you're going to win the battle with the enforcing personnel, and at least to me, being detained or even hauled to the precinct isn't exactly convenient....) that actually requires two hands to open and is carried in plain sight (a clip that shows on the outside of your pants pocket or waistband is fine, but make sure it's not covered by clothing or accessories) - and, for the love of all that's good, if you're stopped or otherwise interviewed about it, to never refer to it as any type of "defensive" blade or "weapon," only as a "cutting tool." This will make you safe when it comes to the letter of the law in pretty much all of Ohio.

But in-reality?

What you can get away with has a lot to do with who you are, how you behave, and where you are - the usual triad, right? :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:24 pm
TSiWRX wrote:

What you can get away with has a lot to do with who you are, how you behave, and where you are - the usual triad, right? :wink:


Pretty much true for whatever you do. There was a fellow on here about a year ago looking for legal help when he was stopped by Youngstown PD, open carrying, but they nailed him for his pocket knife. Young guy, 2AM with a handgun, they were looking for a reason to get him off the street. Had it been a 40 year old guy in broad daylight, they probably wouldn't have even stopped him.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:40 pm
yes that post has good info illustrates what I was saying, a lot of charges involving knifes get settled case by case in court, not on the street where it's an easy opening arrest.

SA knives can be opened with one hand, infact that's the actual intent.
I would fight it in court and argue that simply because a knife can be opened with one hand (actually virtually any folder can also just not as easily) does not mean it is a weapon, There have been many times when I've needed to use my knife WHILE holding something.

Another thing, make sure you actually use your knife.. a pristine blade can be used against you, prosecutors can argue it's lack of wear as evidence it was kept only as a weapon.

Mine is bright orange, 2.5in blade, non serrated, belt cutter and glass breaker.
It is SA which is knock against it and it does have a sharp tip.
I would still argue it's a tool because that's what It's used for.. mostly opening boxes or cutting string.

Would I use it as a weapon.. If It's all I had yes, but the same goes for car key's and pencils.

TSiWRX made a very good point though.. never refer to it as a weapon, It's not it's carried as a tool.

I wish there was more of a push to open up and unify knife and other weapons under the 2a
I don't think the BFA is interested in that though, Personally I'd carry a 4inch fix blade if I could get away with it.
A fixed blade is stronger and more useful as a tool which means it also makes a better "weapon" which is why it's easily argued it's carried as such :/

The thing about knives is they're made to cut.. just like a gun can be used to protect or kill, a knife does not care what "thing" it's cutting.
The better it is as a tool the better it as a weapon, and carrying as a weapon is illegal so we have circular logic going here.

after all they hi-jacked a plane with box cutters and we can all agree box cutters make excellent tools but are also sharp as hell and will slice you open pretty easily.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:10 pm
^ Yup. The "logic" really isn't very logical at all.

------

CW78 wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:

What you can get away with has a lot to do with who you are, how you behave, and where you are - the usual triad, right? :wink:


Pretty much true for whatever you do. There was a fellow on here about a year ago looking for legal help when he was stopped by Youngstown PD, open carrying, but they nailed him for his pocket knife. Young guy, 2AM with a handgun, they were looking for a reason to get him off the street. Had it been a 40 year old guy in broad daylight, they probably wouldn't have even stopped him.


Yep.

Mr. Porschein's case was closely followed in the Open-Carry as well as Ohio firearms communities - http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... y-arrested , and http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic. ... n#p4136365 , and also our BFA Forums here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15488&p=104964#p104964 .

He prevailed and the case was dismissed - but I'd well say that he had a few sleepless nights because of it, and I'd well say that it inconvenienced him as well. At a pistol manipulations class two summers ago, one of the hosts/AIs described the near six-month ordeal that his colleague (both the AI and his colleagues are known quantities in the community - they wouldn't make this kind of stuff up just to "look cool") had to endure, due to an actual defensive-folder use scenario that erupted not long before Ohio enacted "restaurant carry" (which, had his colleague been armed with a firearm, the story would have played out much differently).

And while searching for Mr. Porschein's past threads, I also stumbled upon these two past discussions, which I think are worth recapturing here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17252&hilit=porschein
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16662&hilit=porschein

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:20 pm
Thanks for squaring away the details, that's exactly the thread I was thinking of.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:32 pm
^ No problem. :)

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:16 pm
Joe Sixpack wrote:
Personally I'd carry a 4inch fix blade if I could get away with it.

Having never read Ohio law with an eye toward knife legality is it the fixed blade or blade length that keeps you from carrying a 4" fixed blade?

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:05 pm
JustaShooter wrote:
Joe Sixpack wrote:
Personally I'd carry a 4inch fix blade if I could get away with it.

Having never read Ohio law with an eye toward knife legality is it the fixed blade or blade length that keeps you from carrying a 4" fixed blade?

Well it's been a while since I tried to research knife law (it's a mess every where and ohio is no exception)
there is no preemption so there is a patch work of ordinances.

IIRC the state ORC does not prohibit length or fixed blades.
But most places put limits.. and a popular number is 2.5in

Barring ordinances I could carry a sword OC.. most of the problems arise on concealment (again barring ordinances where most of the action is on this)

Like the link to the OFCC post points out many times this is decided in court on what's a weapon and whats not.
Intent is important tool vs knife.

but a fixed blade is one of the aspects that would be attacked as a weapon and the prosecutor would probably be successful.
So I wont touch a concealed fixed blade of any length.

but IANAL, nor am I a expert on knife laws, hell im not even much of a "knife" guy I mean they're ok but I've never practiced any sort of knife fighting, but knifes are useful tools, same reason I carry a flashlight and sometimes a cigarette lighter (I don't smoke).

I know when I tried to do some research on this about 2 years ago it was difficult to find straight answers, a lot of the laws concerning knifes aren't at the state level (seems to be similar situation in most other states) so it's we're left with ordinances, court cases and a lot of grey area in between.

That's why when I switched to a SA knife I made sure to get one no longer then 2.5in, bright colors, no serrations, etc to try and keep it as non-threatening looking as possible... even with a CHL, It only covers handguns so it technically offers no legal protection.
Although most would agree a gun is more dangerous then a knife (in most situations in avg persons hand).

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:20 pm
^ Exactly, there's no clear-cut answers, and some enforcement officials will simply make them up on the fly:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... Knife-Laws

Looking at kappi011's reply in that thread, for example, I'd really want to know if there's anything on the books with regard to that municipality, or if that particular "friend" of his is just making it up for lack of really knowing what to say (you know that type of person :lol: ).

If I were to carry a fixed blade, I'd do it openly, and I'd go well below the blade-length laws of the municipalities that I will be in that day, just to be safe. Similarly, I would avoid using any knife that is advertised specifically as a defensive knife, such as the TDI/Ka-bar LE knives - which is really sad, given that they really make excellent defensive weapons.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:10 pm
...our knife laws are a confusing mess... I strongly recommend supporting this group that is working on getting knife preemption laws passed: http://www.kniferights.org/

they've already been successful in several states in a short amount of time, and I believe they are looking into OH...

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:28 pm
Thanks folks, excellent info!!

Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them. J.P. Sartre

It is not my duty to die for my country, but to help others die for theirs. Gen Patton
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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:01 am
CW78 wrote:
TSiWRX wrote:

What you can get away with has a lot to do with who you are, how you behave, and where you are - the usual triad, right? :wink:


Pretty much true for whatever you do. There was a fellow on here about a year ago looking for legal help when he was stopped by Youngstown PD, open carrying, but they nailed him for his pocket knife. Young guy, 2AM with a handgun, they were looking for a reason to get him off the street. Had it been a 40 year old guy in broad daylight, they probably wouldn't have even stopped him.


I think this is the key. I EDC a 3.5" locking folder, and I have never had any issues - ever (ther than when I couldn't take it into the Pentagon ... :? ) . Sometimes I even open carry my Ka-Bar Navy MARK 1 which is a 5" fixed blade knife. No one ever seems to care. If you look clean cut or like an outdoorsman rather than a mall ninja or thug nobody gives you a second look --- even in town. In short, be aware of your surroundings. If you are going bar-hopping at midnight it's probably not a good idea to OC a 7" fixed blade or even a large folder. Out in the country or while engaged in outdoor activities it is totally appropriate to carry a "decent sized" knife as a tool. Use common sense and you have nothing to worry about.

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Post subject: Re: Help finding some threads on knife/ knife carry issues.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:17 am
Only time I was ever spoken to by an LEO about the knife on my person was when I was about 16 or 17. It was a Buck folder same as what the Duke boys carried on their TV of the time.

And honestly, all the cop did was ASK me about the knife. No effort to harass me or confiscate the blade.

So many guys nowadays (I like to say "men whose man cards haven't been revoked") have folders clipped to the inside of their front pockets that police just wouldn't have time to stop any great number of them, er, us. And yes I have seen a few women equipped similarly, darn shame more ladies don't tote a knife like that, it could discourage unwanted approach. And maybe even give us good guys a chance to start a conversation, long enough anyhow to give them a "thumbs up" for taking steps to make themselves a little more self-reliant.

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