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Post subject: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the laws?
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 pm
Hello from Southeastern Ohio, I am just wondering why Ohio has the required to retreat if possible part in the laws, most states don't have this policy do they?
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:47 pm
It is number 3 on the self defense section called "duty to retreat", I just feel if your in a gas station and someone comes in to rob it at gun point that if I make an attempt to leave or say I'm gonna leave, that this would probably just draw fire. Just was wondering what people thought about it.
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:54 pm
This is often taken to mean that the defendant had first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using force.

However, if in danger, this does not mean you have to keep your gun in your holster. A person while who has a duty to retreat can defend themselves if there is a danger while retreating.

A small example... You and your family are at a gas station ... it is being robbed ... you draw your gun and attempt to retreat ... the armed robber turns to you in an attempt to keep you from leaving and points his gun at you ... you are justified in defending yourself, family, and even strangers.
-aaron
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:56 pm
They have the duty to retreat because they have not come around to "Stand your ground" yet. It is about 50/50, possibly even more duty to retreat than stand your ground states. Keep in mind in your house (with very few exceptions like invited guests) you have no duty to retreat, same with your automobile. Don't forget you DO need to be in fear for your life or limb, though.

While this is my opinion only, you cannot outrun bullets. The presence of a gun in a bad guys hand, IMO, removes the duty to retreat since it cannot be fulfilled. I would guess close quarters with a knife as well, since we know that 21 ft can be covered in under 2 seconds. If you are like me and have children, there is no way my children can retreat as quickly as I may be able to, and I have a legal right (and responsibility) to protect them.

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:19 pm
Civil and Criminal liability and lawsuits to stop vigilantees and wannabe cops and SWAT teams with glorious TV/movie action-hero Charles Bronson dreams.
If you are far enough away to aim your gun, you are far enough away to run.
Are you in a gun fight or a fun fight?
Are you looking for an excuse to shoot?
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Thank you this really helped to hear your opinions, also I have always had the mind set that I carry for the purpose of defending myself, family and anyone who might be in iminate danger in my presence. I truely believe that if more people carried concealed legally that there would be alot less crime, and you never know when you might be present when something will happen and it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it!
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:35 pm
My understanding of the law is duty to retreat IF you can do so safely.

If someone's trying to rob you then one could argue it's not safe to run away.


My take is this is going to apply primarily if their is an argument.. before it turns violent.
I agree though it's BS.. I should'nt have to run away cause someone ELSE has a problem.

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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:07 pm
Glock-1:

Welcome Aboard!

I don't think I hit you with my standard welcome message - there's a sticky at http://forums.buckeyefirearms.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10097 that you should read, but it's not mandatory. Might not even be a good idea.... :D

Duty To Retreat really means to do a best effort to get the heck out of Dodge if the stuff hits the fan. Unfortunately, there's little case law, so it becomes fun for the Prosecutors, but I would fear the BG's lawyers, or his heirs. If you have a three-year-old under each arm, and the BG threatens you with deadly force (which is also somewhat ill-defined), do you drop one of the kids, toss one or both to your spouse/SO, run like the wind, draw down and cap him? Or a bunch of other possibilities. The Civil outcome could get kind of interesting regardless. Criminal outcomes seem to be fairly good regardless, but the Civil thing can be a mess.

(I've got a buddy who's retired from Reno NV PD. Many years back, he took a disturbance call in a bar, and as he walked in, the BG had a gun leveled at him, and the hammer coming back. Somehow - he was at low ready - he got off the first shot, and generally smashed the BG's wrist bones into his chest. Ended the fight. Unfortunately, the BG and his lawyers sued, and it took about a dozen years to settle....)

We used to have a duty to retreat from our own vehicles or homes. That was removed a while back. We still need more protection, but it's better than it was....

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:38 pm
+1 Old Cold Warrior
Duty to retreat is dependent on the circumstances. To keep with the gas station scenario if BG is between me and the door then no duty to retreat (or between me and any loved ones exit/saftey). If I am just walking in and see the store being robbed have no legal right to walk in to harms way to assist the clerk. My gut tells me this is a good thing as I approch this scene I have no way of knowing what happened previous to my obsevations. ex. Store being robbed clerk pulls weapon and moves to costomers side of counter as BG moves towards registor if I were to walk up and see this scene and decide to "help" mine (and probably mosts) inital reaction would be to focus all attention to the man on the publics side of the counter holding a gun. This could potentially cause the death of an innocent person.

Moral: The duty to retreat prevents vigilanties!

Pray for peace train for War carry a gun and do everything in my power not to use it.
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:28 pm
Echo3November:

The downside to our duty to retreat is that almost any shooting situation may turn into a windfall for the BG, his heirs, or his lawyers, because much of this isn't defined.

If you do find yourself with the BG between you and the door, for example, a valid question at the Civil trial may be "well, why didn't you just hide under the desk?".... It boils down to the Court's view of the situation (in hindsight) as to whether, for example, the BG was leaving, or on his way in to do more harm....

You are correct with respect to the scenario you presented, but even if the BG is wearing a big "I am the BG" t-shirt, you may be in deep stuff if you do much more than hold the door for him as he leaves....

A bit of a mess.... "Castle", generally, (IMHO/IANAL,) says that if you have a sound legal right to be there, and the BG doesn't, he's toast, and you're clear. The setup we have here (with exceptions for your home or vehicle) requires more thought - time that may better be spent seeking cover and returning fire, rather than grabbing your law book out of your pocket to see where you stand.... :D

Not that you MUST shoot, but it removes some of the clouds....

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:02 pm
All great answers!

If I may just add on a touch. You can help a stranger or friend if that person would have had the right to use deadly force.

But be careful! Know the situation before you get involved or you could be the BG in prison.
-aaron
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:33 am
OCCI wrote:
All great answers!

If I may just add on a touch. You can help a stranger or friend if that person would have had the right to use deadly force.

But be careful! Know the situation before you get involved or you could be the BG in prison.
-aaron


Legally you can, but there are tons of hypothetical situations that we could come up with that will end up with a good guy in prison for murder. If you did not witness the entire event, the law (basically) restricts the best option to being a good witness.

I would be satisfied with our self defense laws if we were granted civil immunity for all "good shoots".

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:44 am
gmhiggins wrote:
OCCI wrote:
All great answers!

If I may just add on a touch. You can help a stranger or friend if that person would have had the right to use deadly force.

But be careful! Know the situation before you get involved or you could be the BG in prison.
-aaron


Legally you can, but there are tons of hypothetical situations that we could come up with that will end up with a good guy in prison for murder. If you did not witness the entire event, the law (basically) restricts the best option to being a good witness.

I would be satisfied with our self defense laws if we were granted civil immunity for all "good shoots".


So what does the immunity law we got with ENHANCED Castle Doctrine (enhanced because it extended it to a legally occupied vehicle and gave a refutable presumption of self defense to replace the affirmative defense in the home) actually apply to?

It says you can not be sued civilly if you get no true bill from a grand jury or no idictement from an arraignment and the person who would be suing was or could have been charged for the activity that resulted in the shooting. It is NOT in with the Enhanced Castle doctrine. It is in another place in the ORC.

I know the law can't be depended on until it has some history of being used in court. The first time it is applied the court might find a problem and pitch the whole thing out as bad law.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:50 am
Buckshot wrote:
gmhiggins wrote:
OCCI wrote:
All great answers!

If I may just add on a touch. You can help a stranger or friend if that person would have had the right to use deadly force.

But be careful! Know the situation before you get involved or you could be the BG in prison.
-aaron


Legally you can, but there are tons of hypothetical situations that we could come up with that will end up with a good guy in prison for murder. If you did not witness the entire event, the law (basically) restricts the best option to being a good witness.

I would be satisfied with our self defense laws if we were granted civil immunity for all "good shoots".


So what does the immunity law we got with ENHANCED Castle Doctrine (enhanced because it extended it to a legally occupied vehicle and gave a refutable presumption of self defense to replace the affirmative defense in the home) actually apply to?

Buckshot


Personally I think it says, you have a duty to retreat to your home or car if you can, that you can only use lethal force if you fear for your life and could not retreat to your home or car. You would have to first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using force.
-aaron
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Post subject: Re: Why is Does Ohio have the retreat if possible in the law
Post Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:45 am
Well,I don't have the option of fight or flight as I walk with the assistance of a cane....Beware the Cane....
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