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 Post subject: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Well, Boys You learn something new everyday....You learn how big an outlaw you really are!.....lol

I went to the local small gun shop today and asked if they carried Swiss FFFG, he said, no, there were only two in the region that were allowed to carry it as far as he knew, besides, maybe Cabelas? Buckeyes Outdoors in Buckeye Lake, OH, and Cains nears Parkersburg, WV.

He said the ATF have to do an inspection of your store and make sure it's stored in a vault or safe style room and if it isn't they won't grant you the permits to sell it.

Then, the day they were there to inspect his store for other reasons they were talking about if they had done anything lower the permits or make it easier on other dealers to sell it? A customer mention that he had some of it in his gun cabinet, the ATF agent asked if he had a "gun safe" or "vault," the customer said no, it was just a regular wooden cabinet. The ATF Agent told him if I wanted to I could come to your house right now and investigate that, and if I found that black powder not stored properly you would be arrested on the spot.

WOW!

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Wow indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:45 pm 
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I have to buy my real black gunpowder in Kentucky, at almost any outdoor, hardware or gun store, or at a Civil War encampment, event or reenactment; adult participants are usually given a "powder ration" in a baggie or a can. I am stocked up and can make and fill enough paper cartridges to shoot at a thousand rebels; although they make me frown by not falling down, or not a lot, and I am not that bad of a shot. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:17 am 
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Location: Exit 13 on the Ohio pike
That is kind of ODD, because you can order it to be shipped to you (25 lbs per shipment, 50 lbs stored at your home maximum), and I'm assuming it must be in a cardboard box (with individual 1 lb cans inside the box) when it is shipped.

You do need a magazine to store black powder if you want to get the license to sell it, but it is really a simple little thing that is required.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.ph ... 22_100_360

In the absence of knowledge, or just for fun people make stuff up...and I am thinking some stuff was being made up about the BP talk with ATF.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:35 am 
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I know, I was lookin at this stuff on-line before I went there and noticed they would ship it to you?

The owner of the shop said the store was full when the ATF Agent said it, and there was talk about it for a long while as you can imagine?....I don't know, this is the first I'm hearing about any of this myself...

The ATF Agent said the Black Powder in the F series?...is "unstable" compared to the new smokeless powders and that is why there are more extreme measures on them for "everyones safety." They don't enforce the home owners as much "yet", but if they are caught or investigated for other allegations that is added to the charges... Like many other things.....It just goes on and on with these people...

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:36 am 
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Location: North West Central Ohio
You can actually buy 50 lbs. of black powder per person per day.

The powder houses know the rules and won't sell an illegal amount. So, go in and ask to buy 51 lbs. that day, and you will be talking to an ATF agent. But 50 lbs. will bother no one.

The case and cans thing is for SHIPPING it, if you go to the powder house yourself you can get it in bulk. I can't remember the package amount, but it is in a mylar bag and is about 2 1/2 cans worth, so probably about 2 1/2 lbs of powder. So you would get 10 mylar bags instead of 25 cans in your 25 lb case.

Black powder is a Class C explosive (I THINK it is Class C, won't swear to that) while smokeless powder is only a flammable solid, no kind of explosive at all.

The cans for powder are made with low temp solder so that fire or heat will open then and so that they are not strong enough to make enough Resistance to make an explosion. The mylar bags do the same thing that way but don't provide as much crush resistance or penetration resistance, so they can't be shipped via UPS.

A powder magazine (probably what the picture from Dixie Gun Works was) is a lightly constructed, lightly fastened plywood box to help protect from fire and sparks but built lightly enough that it will NOT build pressure and become a bomb casing.

The LAST thing you would ever want to do is store black powder in something like a heavy duty gun safe. That would provide the containment to make a bomb case instead of just let it go and vent it.

All the info from this supposed BATFE agent is BAD INFO and most likely the work of a "gun shop commando".

There were NO CHANGES to the black powder rules right after 09/11/01 and there have been none published by the BATFE since then.

Buckshot

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:21 am 
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Location: Wauseon NW Corner.
Is the same ATF that sold GUNS to the mexican drug cartels and then lost them and got a Border agent killed?????????? NO couldnt be, they wouldnt do something like that. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:32 pm 
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@buckshot, I agree with what you're saying but they do inspect the gun dealers that sell the F series Powders to make sure they are in "Vault" or "Safe" so, I'd say they are not using any sense here at all?.....I just talked to Woodbury Outfitters in Coshocton OH, and they told me the same thing.....

BTW, Cabelas in Wheeling does carry it also....

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Ohio, gun-store associates have told me that the demand for black gunpowder and potential profits vs. problems (and the hassles of compliance, paperwork and being pestered) simply does not make it worth their time and trouble. :|


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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Location: Exit 13 on the Ohio pike
Buckshot wrote:
You can actually buy 50 lbs. of black powder per person per day.

The powder houses know the rules and won't sell an illegal amount. So, go in and ask to buy 51 lbs. that day, and you will be talking to an ATF agent. But 50 lbs. will bother no one.

The case and cans thing is for SHIPPING it, if you go to the powder house yourself you can get it in bulk. I can't remember the package amount, but it is in a mylar bag and is about 2 1/2 cans worth, so probably about 2 1/2 lbs of powder. So you would get 10 mylar bags instead of 25 cans in your 25 lb case.

Black powder is a Class C explosive (I THINK it is Class C, won't swear to that) while smokeless powder is only a flammable solid, no kind of explosive at all.

The cans for powder are made with low temp solder so that fire or heat will open then and so that they are not strong enough to make enough Resistance to make an explosion. The mylar bags do the same thing that way but don't provide as much crush resistance or penetration resistance, so they can't be shipped via UPS.

A powder magazine (probably what the picture from Dixie Gun Works was) is a lightly constructed, lightly fastened plywood box to help protect from fire and sparks but built lightly enough that it will NOT build pressure and become a bomb casing.

The LAST thing you would ever want to do is store black powder in something like a heavy duty gun safe. That would provide the containment to make a bomb case instead of just let it go and vent it.

All the info from this supposed BATFE agent is BAD INFO and most likely the work of a "gun shop commando".

There were NO CHANGES to the black powder rules right after 09/11/01 and there have been none published by the BATFE since then.

Buckshot


Actually I have it on good info that you can buy GOEX in a 25 lb bulk box if you can find a GOEX dealer, Chad Cleland told me that, he used to shoot a lot of BP (he used to shoot for TC) not sure if he still does. Unless the 25 lb box was just full of 2-1/2lb mylar bags ??

The explosives license for BP is something a lot of places will not get into, but if the store owner is a die hard BP shooter, and deals with BP shooters they have an incentive to do so.

People who run gun stores and sporting goods stores make up all kinds of things that EVERYBODY KNOWS, except we also know it is BS ;-).

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American held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......for an indefinite period of time going forward..........

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions


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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:27 am 
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Location: North West Central Ohio
WVRiflemannOH wrote:
@buckshot, I agree with what you're saying but they do inspect the gun dealers that sell the F series Powders to make sure they are in "Vault" or "Safe" so, I'd say they are not using any sense here at all?.....I just talked to Woodbury Outfitters in Coshocton OH, and they told me the same thing.....

BTW, Cabelas in Wheeling does carry it also....


They tried that inspection crap on an old dealer out of Kenton, OH. Rush Creek Gun Shop. Also owned Rush Creek Round Balls for years. Went to the big NMLRA shoot many years.

He showed them a little box magazine he kept in the store. I think it was good for 25 lbs. He had 16 lbs of powder in it, 4 each Fg, FFg, FFFg and FFFFg.

That was perfectly OK but they wanted to know where the rest of his powder was. He took them to the mouth of the driveway to his farm. He pointed at a dome out to the side of the house and the barn and told them the rest of his powder was there. They said "show us".

He told them NO. You came to inspect my shop, and I have to let you. You looked at the powder stored in the shop, as you have a right to do. I showed you the bunker, which is more than I have to do, it is not in the shop or part of the shop. Your bosses know about it, it was in the application for the shop for storing the powder here, but it is NOT part of the shop. Now you can leave, and these gentlemen will help you back to town and make sure you don't get lost, and pointed them to two county deputies that had driven up.

He was on the phone on the way out to get the deputies. Seems he was one of the trainers for the deputies, and he did not have any trouble getting a couple when he needed them.

That was the last time the BATFE messed with him, as he let his license go and retired about a year and a half later.

The Vault or Safe is either BS or pure stupidity. BS if the BATFE don't know the correct word (magazine for the small box in the store, or bunker for the large storage outside the store) or pure stupidity if they are actually telling people it has to be kept in a safe, that is nothing but a bomb. Powder storage has to either open before pressure builds (magazine) or safely vent in a direction where it can't hurt anything (usually straight up) like is done with a bunker.

The regional BATFE needs to be challenged on this whole thing, sounds like they have a local turd thinking he is king and trying to make special rules.

The last time they tried that in Ohio they devalued a bunch of guns in a legal collection, killed the family's pets in front of their kids and made the wife miscarry. Before it was all over it cost the Govt. a bunch of money and the guy who lead the raid was PROHIBITED from being along on the crew that returned the firearms to the rightful owner.

Of course, that is probably why no one challenges them, they are scared to death that they will come and kill or otherwise mess with them.

Buckshot

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:40 am 
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Location: North West Central Ohio
Bill,

I don't know what Goex sells, it was never in stock at a powder house and if you found it it was single pounds here and there at too much money when you are going to blow off a pound or two over a weekend for Infantry or Cavalry and BUNCHES of it for Artillery for the weekend!

We used to get it at a powder house in Indiana, I knew the town name till I started typing this. Over I-70 past Richmond a ways and then south and west some more.

He was always out of Goex. Usually had Swiss, German and Lidu/Dragon from China. We usually picked the Lidu/Dragon, it was oilier and resisted water better. Since we were rolling in paper cartridges and put nothing but powder down the bore that made the difference between our muskets working and forming clumps of nasty stuff to dig out of the barrel.

Artillery usually used PVC the next size smaller than the bore and rolled foil around the PVC and closed the bottom. Then they pulled the foil off and poured in 1/4 to 1/3 of a pound of powder and then folded down the foil over the powder.

Most rifles (like the 3" Ordnance rifle) and field pieces (like the 6 lbdr. gun or the 12 lb. Napoleon) are loaded with two of those packets, usually 2 1/4 lb packets for the 6 lbdr. and 2 1/3 lb packets for the other two.

12 shots at 2/3 of a lb. of powder each is 8 pounds of powder up in smoke in one battle. Figure another 4 lbs. if there is a night firing demo and another 8 lbs for the battle the next day. One gun crew has burned 20 lbs. of powder in one weekend!

That is why you try for bulk powder for the infantry and cavalry but INSIST ON IT FOR THE GUNS. They generally burn Fg or C which people will variously tell you stands for corn powder or cannon powder.

Buckshot

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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:36 am 
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Location: Exit 13 on the Ohio pike
The Chinese powder might have been a fireworks powder ?? Pre 911 is was not hard to find, not expensive, and fine for that use probably.

Blackpowder for use in muzzle loaders, as well as smokeless powder are actually BOTH explosives sold under a small arms exemption, the smokeless for say a 105 recoiless rifle WAS avail back then too, and for even bigger stuff, for around $2 per lb. But ALL of that stuff now requires an explosives license to buy or have it. This is because it does not fall under the small arms exemption, and post 911 they started enforcing that with vigor. They got into the large model rocket guys too.

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American held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......for an indefinite period of time going forward..........

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions


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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Green-weenie military and gun haters might frown, but still want reenactors to come to and stay at their towns, for fairs, festivals, encampments, events and reenactments; even if they make smoke and noise with the big girls and boys and pollute and hurt Mother Earth, while having fun with guns, including cannons and horses, of course...as long as they do it for FREE or don't cost or charge them much. :|


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 Post subject: Re: Black Powder And The ATF
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:30 am 
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Location: North West Central Ohio
willbird wrote:
The Chinese powder might have been a fireworks powder ?? Pre 911 is was not hard to find, not expensive, and fine for that use probably.

Blackpowder for use in muzzle loaders, as well as smokeless powder are actually BOTH explosives sold under a small arms exemption, the smokeless for say a 105 recoilless rifle WAS avail back then too, and for even bigger stuff, for around $2 per lb. But ALL of that stuff now requires an explosives license to buy or have it. This is because it does not fall under the small arms exemption, and post 911 they started enforcing that with vigor. They got into the large model rocket guys too.


Bill,

The powder house I was talking about was/is in Waldron, IN.

The black powder I was speaking of is cannister grade black powder. We bought it in FFg grandulation for our .58 Cal. rifle muskets. It came, when canned, in blue and yellow cans detailing what it is and that it was FFg grade. When bought bulk, it was in 2 1/2 lb. mylar bags with a sticker on them saying FFg.

It is perfectly normal black powder and does a good job of launching .58 cal. Minnie balls when you want to. Being a little more moisture resistant it gave us less trouble on nasty, misty days.

Sorry, you are FLAT WRONG about canister grade smokeless powder, it is a Class C Flammable Solid, NOT an explosive at all.

You can STILL buy surplus powder, if you look around, that barely has ANY application at all in normal reloading. Stuff that is too slow a powder for the .50 BMG, stuff that came out of the 20 mm, 25 mm and 30 mm stuff.

Some stuff, and the recoilless rifles are old enough they might be in there, use a highly refined version of black powder called cocoa brown. It is made with a special charcoal made out of a special source. It is the powder that was used in the bag charges for the Iowa Class Battleships. I have also been told (no first hand knowledge) that there is cocoa brown in the initiator bags for the 155 mm guns. This, being a version of black powder WOULD be an explosive.

Buckshot

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