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Post subject: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:43 pm
I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that someday it may be possible to circumvent NICS checks if you hold a valid CHL. I think Texas does it this way. You just show your license and the NICS check is not necessary. Is or will Ohio ever do anything like this? I get delayed every single time and never get my response until the 3rd day. It makes gun show purchases from a dealer impossible. Driving out of town or out of state for purchases isn't even an option unless I want to make 2 trips.

Is there anything you can do to get a pre approval or some sort of ID to bypass this? What about a FFL? Would that circumvent NICS?

Proud Member of the NRA, Crossbow Nation, Buckeye Firearms Association, Ohio Freedom Alliance

So! This is how liberty dies...With thunderous applause.
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:04 am
I don't have final info, but have heard that the BATFE is slowly phasing this out, as old licenses time out and get replaced, the new ones won't work for this.

I have also been told that it involves the way the background checks are done. Ohio does not use the method for background checks that satisfies the NICS thing. I DO know that trying to run a background check through NICS for other than buying a firearm which is where you would be if you tried to go through NICS for a CCW, is ILLEGAL.

As far as your NICS problems, they have a procedure for that, it is called a UPIN. Unique Personal Identification Number.

This is a number you put in the "additional ID" field on the Form 4473.

You get a form and send it it, they check it and you out and issue you this number which indicates that they are to look at a list of UPIN holders and then can see all this without having to do the check again. YOU have to give them permission to retain the info, otherwise they have do destroy it so the UPIN will do you no good. This is info for the check-out to get the UPIN, NOT the gun info.

Go to your dealer and ask them for the info on how to get a UPIN. He can either tell you, give you a form or give you a phone number to call to get it started.

That is the ONLY option you have, they will NOT tell you what the problem or confusion was as long as you only get a DELAY and not a DENIED.

HTH.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:36 am
I think I know what is causing the delay. It's an old carrying concealed weapons charge. This always requires a human to read the disposition of the court case to see how it turned out. Well as it turns out I was right and they were wrong and I do hold a valid CHL. Which raises another question. If I somehow expunged or sealed that would it prevent my delays? It took some 30 days to get approved for a CHL because of that pain in my rear.

I am not sure if it would still throw up the flag on a NICS if I were to spend the money to seal it? I'd much rather obtain a good guy pass by some means and just bypass that crap. Like I said before I thought I heard word of CHL's being able to do this very thing if we went to a Texas style system.

This UPIN thing that you speak of. Can it be used more than once or is it for a single purchase basis? Does it expire? This may be what I am looking for. The problem is I don't like the idea of an FBI proctologist giving me the fist in order to get one.

Proud Member of the NRA, Crossbow Nation, Buckeye Firearms Association, Ohio Freedom Alliance

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:10 am
Here's the official Voluntary Appeal File brochure. Enjoy!

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:31 am
Buckeye Dan wrote:
I get delayed every single time and never get my response until the 3rd day. It makes gun show purchases from a dealer impossible. Driving out of town or out of state for purchases isn't even an option unless I want to make 2 trips.


I'd urge you to write your U.S. Representative and Senators Brown and Voinovich every time this happens. We as citizens need to complain effectively more often about these types of situations. Please note especially the first paragraph of something I posted prevously:

Quote:
A lot of folks complain, justifiably, about problems such as National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) delays, sheriffs taking more than 45 days to issue CHLs, and so on. My suggestion is to make sure that you let your representatives know when you have such problems. For example, I used to get a “delay” about 2/3rds of the time when I purchased a firearm. I haven't been delayed the last couple of years, but every time I did get delayed, I wrote a letter to my U.S. House Member and both U.S. Senators, complaining about the NICS system putting a “delay” on my constitutional rights. I’m not saying it made a huge impact, but I think we as firearm owners need to do this more when we aren't happy with "the system".

Has everyone here who had to wait more than 45 days for a CHL written a letter to your Ohio House and Senate Members and to the Governor? You should. I know folks will say it does no good, but as someone who testifies often at the Statehouse and meets with Ohio House and Senate Members regularly, I can say that letters from constituents do influence them - probably more than you realize. Most folks can’t even name their Ohio legislators, so they receive far fewer letters than you might think, and they know that folks who bother to write are generally those who not only vote but also influence other voters. Frankly, it would help those of us who do testify on behalf of firearm rights if more folks would write.

When we testify in front of legislative committees, I know that the committee members will pay more attention when they know that their constituents are paying attention. If we’re advocating for penalties for sheriffs who take more than 45 days for a CHL, for example, it helps if the representatives have heard from their constituents that this is a problem. Behind closed doors, where decisions are often made, they will also be aware when these decisions are being scrutinized by the citizens they represent. Please phone and write to your representatives and officials often. Let them know you are paying attention. Let them know when you are not happy with the way they voted. Thank them when you are happy with the way they voted and the bills they’ve sponsored and supported.

If you need help finding out who your representatives are, there are many resources available. BFA has some available on its home page.
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:06 pm
Buckeye Dan wrote:
I think I know what is causing the delay. It's an old carrying concealed weapons charge... . Which raises another question. If I somehow expunged or sealed that would it prevent my delays?

Won't help.

Arrest records get logged federally and there is no mechanism in place to remove the arrest record. Getting your record expunged or sealed at the state level won't have any federal impact.

Get your UPIN.

This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed!

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:35 pm
Buckshot wrote:
I have also been told that it involves the way the background checks are done. Ohio does not use the method for background checks that satisfies the NICS thing. I DO know that trying to run a background check through NICS for other than buying a firearm which is where you would be if you tried to go through NICS for a CCW, is ILLEGAL.


This is the same reason some states--Texas comes to mind--will not recognize Ohio CHLs. They require NCIC checks.

Some states--Illinois I know for certain--require you to obtain a license from the state police before you can buy guns there. With this license there is no NICS check required. But I for one am NOT willing to submit to getting a license to buy a legal product that I am eligible to buy. It's none of their damn business if I buy guns.
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:45 pm
farmermike wrote:
Some states--Illinois I know for certain--require you to obtain a license from the state police before you can buy guns there. With this license there is no NICS check required. But I for one am NOT willing to submit to getting a license to buy a legal product that I am eligible to buy. It's none of their damn business if I buy guns.

Illinois conducts its own background check at the time of purchase; it's essentially the same as what the NICS would be, it's just handled at the state level. The Illinois FOID card doesn't weigh into this at all - it's a distinctly separate infringement.

Btw, Illinois charges for background checks, and there's a 24-hour waiting period for long guns, and a 72-hour waiting period for handguns. Makes a gunshow purchase or transfer a very difficult thing.

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:08 pm
Jumping Frog wrote:
Buckeye Dan wrote:
I think I know what is causing the delay. It's an old carrying concealed weapons charge... . Which raises another question. If I somehow expunged or sealed that would it prevent my delays?

Won't help.

Arrest records get logged federally and there is no mechanism in place to remove the arrest record. Getting your record expunged or sealed at the state level won't have any federal impact.

Get your UPIN.


If this were true how could a convicted felon with a sealed record ever purchase a firearm if the records weren't actually oredered sealed on the federal level?
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:56 am
SAR Tec wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:
Buckeye Dan wrote:
I think I know what is causing the delay. It's an old carrying concealed weapons charge... . Which raises another question. If I somehow expunged or sealed that would it prevent my delays?

Won't help.

Arrest records get logged federally and there is no mechanism in place to remove the arrest record. Getting your record expunged or sealed at the state level won't have any federal impact.

Get your UPIN.


SAR Tec,

If this were true how could a convicted felon with a sealed record ever purchase a firearm if the records weren't actually oredered sealed on the federal level?


They WON'T and they CAN'T.

The reason? The rights restoration process on the federal level, at least for gun rights, has been DE-FUNDED for YEARS by Chuckie Shumer and his ilk.

No mater what happens at the state level, due to lack of funding, there IS NO restoration of gun rights at the federal level.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:21 am
+1 on buckshots answer about the upin #. You are running into this problem because someone with you're exact name has commited a felony and is not able to own a firearm. They have to make sure that you are not the one with a crimal/prision record. I have a friend that goes thru this all the time. I dont live in Ohio but we have the same problems here in Florida.......Glock 30

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:59 pm
Buckshot:

I have to disagree. Had my record sealed in Feb., paperwork filed at BCI in March, clear fingerprint card returned back from FBI in April. I have purchased 4 firearms (2 pistols and 2 longuns) since May. Standing in line at Vance's checkout takes me longer than the paperowk on the gun. So I guess I am just the exception. By the way the list of agencies the sealed record is sent to is as long as my arm and goes way beyond the state level.
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:01 am
SAR Tec wrote:
Buckshot:

I have to disagree. Had my record sealed in Feb., paperwork filed at BCI in March, clear fingerprint card returned back from FBI in April. I have purchased 4 firearms (2 pistols and 2 longuns) since May. Standing in line at Vance's checkout takes me longer than the paperowk on the gun. So I guess I am just the exception. By the way the list of agencies the sealed record is sent to is as long as my arm and goes way beyond the state level.


SAR Tech,

Hate to burst your bubble, but if you had a problem in the state that also qualified for a Federal beef then you are currently committing a Federal Crime every time you purchase a firearm, no matter what you did here in the state.

Your violation that you had sealed may have never been transmitted to the Feds at the time it happened. That is PROBABLY why you are not getting a denial on the NICS check. But you are still VIOLATING FEDERAL LAW as your FEDERAL DISABILITY CAN NOT BE REMOVED, Congress DOES NOT PERMIT those actions to take place!

I would take this up very carefully with the lawyer that did the work for you. Nothing much he can do about it, but you NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH, so that you can violate the law with full knowledge and awareness instead of doing it blindly and by accident.

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:01 am
Buckshot wrote:
SAR Tec wrote:
Buckshot:

I have to disagree. Had my record sealed in Feb., paperwork filed at BCI in March, clear fingerprint card returned back from FBI in April. I have purchased 4 firearms (2 pistols and 2 longuns) since May. Standing in line at Vance's checkout takes me longer than the paperowk on the gun. So I guess I am just the exception. By the way the list of agencies the sealed record is sent to is as long as my arm and goes way beyond the state level.


SAR Tech,

Hate to burst your bubble, but if you had a problem in the state that also qualified for a Federal beef then you are currently committing a Federal Crime every time you purchase a firearm, no matter what you did here in the state.

Your violation that you had sealed may have never been transmitted to the Feds at the time it happened. That is PROBABLY why you are not getting a denial on the NICS check. But you are still VIOLATING FEDERAL LAW as your FEDERAL DISABILITY CAN NOT BE REMOVED, Congress DOES NOT PERMIT those actions to take place!

I would take this up very carefully with the lawyer that did the work for you. Nothing much he can do about it, but you NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH, so that you can violate the law with full knowledge and awareness instead of doing it blindly and by accident.

No bubble to burst. With personal connections through BCI I have followed trhough at all levels (local, state and federal) and asked all of the questions. What you may be overlooking is that not all felonies qualify for Federal Disability. That was the answer to the question I originally posed when Buckeye Dan stated the following:

Buckshot



"Buckeye Dan wrote:I think I know what is causing the delay. It's an old carrying concealed weapons charge... . Which raises another question. If I somehow expunged or sealed that would it prevent my delays?
Won't help.

Arrest records get logged federally and there is no mechanism in place to remove the arrest record. Getting your record expunged or sealed at the state level won't have any federal impact.

Get your UPIN."


If records are logged "federally", define federally. I know that 6 years after the conviction I was refused for the purchase of a handgun because of my conviction. So the restriction that did exist 14 years ago miraculously disappeared this year. If after having multiple fingerprint checks performed by the FBI not to mention locally and state LE have come back OK, NICS did not block my past purchases and my record has been sealed at local, state and federal levels (confirmed in writing) then who exactly do you say is Federal Level? Who do you suggest is going to come knocking on my door or pursue charges?
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Post subject: Re: CHL for NICS checks?
Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:41 am
[quote="SAR TecIf records are logged "federally", define federally. I know that 6 years after the conviction I was refused for the purchase of a handgun because of my conviction. So the restriction that did exist 14 years ago miraculously disappeared this year. If after having multiple fingerprint checks performed by the FBI not to mention locally and state LE have come back OK, NICS did not block my past purchases and my record has been sealed at local, state and federal levels (confirmed in writing) then who exactly do you say is Federal Level? Who do you suggest is going to come knocking on my door or pursue charges?[/quote]

SAR Tech,

The agency I would be most worried about showing up on my front step in this case would be the BATFE! They don't have all that good a record of dealing with civilians, sometimes the civilians don't even live through the encounter.

I am guessing you were in Ohio 14 years ago when you got denied? Putting a change of states in there would cloud the issue even more.

IIRC, 14 years ago NICS was still being built and Brady1 background checks were done in Ohio by the BCI&I, and you had to pay for them.

BCI&I, being the record keeper for the State of Ohio, would know a lot more about arrests and things than the Feds ever will. The Brady bunch is STILL screaming their heads off about not enough records being entered into the NICS system. Remember Cho and shooting on the Hokies Campus? Info never got shipped up from VA to NICS. Note, also, that NICS and NCIS are two separate systems and not connected, which was the answer to why Ohio CCW license do not take the place of NICS checks.

We KNOW that right now BCI&I most likely can still see past the seal on your records and know for a fact that your local county sheriff can.

We also KNOW that Federal Relief from Gun Disability is PROHIBITED by Congress DE-FUNDING that portion of the law. This is a known fact and can easily be checked with a few Google searches.

We also KNOW that as of right now NICS CAN NOT see what the State sees becasue they approved your purchases.

So there are two things going on here. 1. A Federal employee, donating his time, is sitting there restoring firearms rights to people without any pay for him or that department and against the orders of congress. OR 2. Some Ohio (or insert other state name here) records NEVER GOT SENT UP TO THE FEDS. Which do you think is more likely to be true?

Why should you care? What happens when Zero and his minions want to spend some money and create some jobs, and they decide the way to do that is to put some people to work in each and every state inputting firearms records?

Six years down the road you go to buy another firearm and you get a DENIED from NICS (due to the new info input by the out of work people) and THEN get a late night/early morning NO KNOCK (after all, you have guns and might be dangerous) raid on your home since they have a record of NICS activity on you, Will you, your family and your pets live through that raid?

I am NOT wishing you anything bad, but telling you you need to do some more research, do some more checking and some more talking with the guys who got your records sealed for you!

Now you have an idea of the right questions to ask!

Buckshot

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