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 Post subject: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:08 am 
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Location: White Hall, Ohio
Its makes for a super long day if its a 1 day class. lots of working people or single parents have a tough time getting 1 night off work let alone 2. why do we have to give up 12 hours of our life, money and such to express a right? It seems like if we don't have that time or money our lives are not worth as much. can we at least get a ball rolling to make it where the class doesn't have to take 12 hours. 8 hours total would be much more easy for most poor working class people. If it was shorter I think instructors could charge less. I also see the fees will be removed for instructors, thats not fair, they are already making money off of ccw training and dont have to take a class. Can the bfa please please include something in your next bill to reduce the training time some if even by two hours. It would be a big deal to a lot of people. I have my ccw thanks to a instructor friend letting me attend a class for free. My friends and parents who are working poor aint so lucky though. Also other states seem to have less training time, if they have training at all. the ones next door to us either have no training or its 6-8 hours like the nra basic pistol course. What does everybody else think on this! buckeye leaders if you see this please press hard for this! James in whitehall

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:24 pm 
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I don't know the actual basis for the 12 hour requirement, but I have some ideas. If the total instruction time were six hours (or zero hours) many more people would go and get the permit. The current 12 hours probably makes some lawmakers feel warm and fuzzy, while others know it will be an effective deterrant, and probably helped in getting the bill passed in the first place. On the other hand, it takes a certain committment to obtain the permit in its current form, and probably keeps a number of yahoos that shouldn't be carrying from carrying. I'm not referring to criminals here, just well intentioned law abiding folks that are stupid or just plain careless.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:58 pm 
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The Basis for 12 hours was because the old NRA Basic Pistol Lesson plan took 10 hours to complete. The state of Ohio used this as a guide when forming the law on training and added 2 hours for review of the Ohio CCW booklet. Plain and simple. As far as fees.......if you spent as much time and money as it takes to become and instructor I think you would think twice about that statement. For all those who feel that instructors make tons of money doing what we do they are mistaken. Speaking for myself I do it because of my love for the 2nd Amendment and to teach people that guns are not weapons as everyone feels... but are guns. Educating someone that has never fired a gun and teaching them safety and fundementals is a great feeling. Not everyone that takes the class has fired a gun and you need to be able to teach to that level. I personnely will not compromise my teaching principles to shorten a class...in fact I will teach as long as it takes to make a student comfortable.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Location: Medina County, Wadsworth, Ohio
I probably wont have the most popular opinion on here, but my wife and I didnt want to stop. We wanted to go home, dont get me wrong. But we could have done another 6-8 hrs on Sunday. I took Roger Polks class in Wadsworth last weekend. He did 12 hours of class room on Sat. and 2.5 hrs of range on Sun. It was great.

My wife and I just want to know everything. Thats one of the main reasons we came here. Im definitely on the same page as Cityboy about the comittment it takes to get qualified. It will keep the people who wont take it seriously out of the class. Those are the people who will ruin the progress we have achieved so far. I would personally go to class for a week if I had to.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:05 pm 
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glockfanjohn wrote:
The Basis for 12 hours was because the old NRA Basic Pistol Lesson plan took 10 hours to complete. The state of Ohio used this as a guide when forming the law on training and added 2 hours for review of the Ohio CCW booklet. Plain and simple. As far as fees.......if you spent as much time and money as it takes to become and instructor I think you would think twice about that statement. For all those who feel that instructors make tons of money doing what we do they are mistaken. Speaking for myself I do it because of my love for the 2nd Amendment and to teach people that guns are not weapons as everyone feels... but are guns. Educating someone that has never fired a gun and teaching them safety and fundementals is a great feeling. Not everyone that takes the class has fired a gun and you need to be able to teach to that level. I personnely will not compromise my teaching principles to shorten a class...in fact I will teach as long as it takes to make a student comfortable.


I have to disagree with that. The Ohio Attorney General's Office used to have a CHL "Model Lesson Plan", for OPOTC trainers. It has since been removed (or I can't find it on the site). It is much different than the NRA Basic Pistol Course.

The NRA Basic Pistol Course is supposed to be 8 hours, not 10 but should be allowed extra time for certain students depending on factors such as prior experience, how easy they learn etc.

The Law says the CCW course needs to be 12 hours- 10 hours classroom and 2 hours live fire/range experience. So, what many Instructors do is go over all the NRA material(which does cover the required topics), go to the range for 2 hours, then come back and talk about Ohio laws or specific CHL topics and answer questions to fill the time. NRA Instructors should not be giving legal advice unless they are lawyers. What they should be doing is DISCUSSING legal issues with the group as private citizens after making it quite clear that this is not intended to be legal advice, not part of the NRA program, and it is each of thier responsibilities to learn the laws and when in doubt consult an attorney.

So why 12 hours?? I have no idea. I've had classes where we could have covered everything in 6 hours because of the student(s) prior knowledge, and have others that went on for 13 or so and I wished we had more time.

As far as John's comment about not making money and doing it to promote safety, we are 100% on the same page.

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NRA Certified Instructor,Member and Recruiter
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If you like guns, click here! https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/sign ... ID=nranews


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:13 pm 
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NRAInstructor wrote:
glockfanjohn wrote:
The Basis for 12 hours was because the old NRA Basic Pistol Lesson plan took 10 hours to complete. The state of Ohio used this as a guide when forming the law on training and added 2 hours for review of the Ohio CCW booklet. Plain and simple. As far as fees.......if you spent as much time and money as it takes to become and instructor I think you would think twice about that statement. For all those who feel that instructors make tons of money doing what we do they are mistaken. Speaking for myself I do it because of my love for the 2nd Amendment and to teach people that guns are not weapons as everyone feels... but are guns. Educating someone that has never fired a gun and teaching them safety and fundementals is a great feeling. Not everyone that takes the class has fired a gun and you need to be able to teach to that level. I personnely will not compromise my teaching principles to shorten a class...in fact I will teach as long as it takes to make a student comfortable.


I have to disagree with that. The Ohio Attorney General's Office used to have a CHL "Model Lesson Plan", for OPOTC trainers. It has since been removed (or I can't find it on the site). It is much different than the NRA Basic Pistol Course.

The NRA Basic Pistol Course is supposed to be 8 hours, not 10 but should be allowed extra time for certain students depending on factors such as prior experience, how easy they learn etc.

The Law says the CCW course needs to be 12 hours- 10 hours classroom and 2 hours live fire/range experience. So, what many Instructors do is go over all the NRA material(which does cover the required topics), go to the range for 2 hours, then come back and talk about Ohio laws or specific CHL topics and answer questions to fill the time. NRA Instructors should not be giving legal advice unless they are lawyers. What they should be doing is DISCUSSING legal issues with the group as private citizens after making it quite clear that this is not intended to be legal advice, not part of the NRA program, and it is each of thier responsibilities to learn the laws and when in doubt consult an attorney.

So why 12 hours?? I have no idea. I've had classes where we could have covered everything in 6 hours because of the student(s) prior knowledge, and have others that went on for 13 or so and I wished we had more time.

As far as John's comment about not making money and doing it to promote safety, we are 100% on the same page.




The first NRA lesson plan WAS 10 hour and they changed it to 8 !!!!!!!!

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John
Army Vet
NRA Life,NRA RSO,NRA Instructor/Ohio CHL,BFA MOD,Glock Armorer
Lots of Glocks

They can come for my guns but I will give them my bullets

If you can read this thank a teacher
Because it is in english thank a vet!


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Same team here buddy, just sharing my opinion.

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CCC Range committee and Lake committee
Second Call Defense Recruiter

If you like guns, click here! https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/sign ... ID=nranews


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:07 am 
 
I don't know anything about the length of NRA courses or how they came up with 12 hours. I think it's a moot point.

I think I can guess pretty accurately why they decided to require what most would consider to be fairly substantial training: simple politics, and not in the bad sense.

Let's face it, Ohio was very, very late to the concealed carry game. Most states had had it for years, if not decades in some cases. The effort to pass CC in Ohio met with failure time after time.

When the Republicans had substantial majorities in both houses and the leadership in both chambers indicated support, it appeared the time might finally have come. But you still had major opposition from the FOP, OSP and other police lobbying groups, plus, you had a governor whose support was wobbly at best.

So the proponents had to make this entire law look very carefully considered and responsible. They knew if they passed a half-assed bill requiring little or no training they'd lose support they could not afford to lose. Remember, it takes a 2/3 majority in BOTH houses to override a veto and there was never any guarantee that Bob "Free Golf Outings" Taft wouldn't go back on his word and veto the damn thing when it came to his desk.

Fortunately, that didn't happen, but it did happen with HB 347, the bill that cleaned up the original concealed carry law. Taft vetoed 347 as one of the last things he did as governor. It was touch and go on whether the pro-gun coalition could hold together to produce the required 2/3 majorities to override. Thankfully, it held and the veto was overridden by Ohio House 71-21 and by Ohio Senate 21-12.

Should there be no training requirement or no requirement to obtain a license? Who knows. It seems to work pretty well in Vermont and Alaska, but we're not Vermont or Alaska, either sociologically or politically.

I do know that a bill to make our law like Vermont's would never pass today. Politics is the art of the possible and many times you don't get all you want. But when you have the opportunity to get much of what you want, you'd better grab it. That's exactly what happened with the original concealed carry law. No one thought it was perfect or even anywhere close to it. But everyone knew once a law was on the books and there weren't gunfights in the streets as the opponents predicted, there would be opportunities to improve the law and make it truly workable. So for three years we hung holsters from our necks while driving and couldn't go in stores that sold beer. HB 347 fixed a lot of those stupidities and efforts continue to this day to fix others, some of which weren't even anticipated when the first law was written.

There are a few people here who seem to have exceedingly short political memories. Either that or they're woefully--perhaps willfully--uninformed or misinformed. There's a world of difference between an opinion and an informed opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:24 pm 
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It's been a few years since my training, but I don't recall the class covering a lot of basic handgun safety (we might have, I just don't recall that portion). we spent a LOT of time covering the Ohio firearms and concealed carry laws, far more than two hours. plus reviewing the Atty Gen booklet. Actually the laws were the FIRST thing covered in the class. the instructors did not collect money from the attendees until the end of the first day. Up till that point if you didn't like what you heard you could walk out and it didn't cost you anything, they were obviously not teaching the class to make money, and both instructors are officers. If you recall the Ohio CCW laws were not nearly as friendly when it was first implemented, there has definitely been progress made. I didn't feel the 12 hours was a hardship.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:06 pm 
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farslayer wrote:
It's been a few years since my training, but I don't recall the class covering a lot of basic handgun safety (we might have, I just don't recall that portion). we spent a LOT of time covering the Ohio firearms and concealed carry laws, far more than two hours. plus reviewing the Atty Gen booklet. Actually the laws were the FIRST thing covered in the class. the instructors did not collect money from the attendees until the end of the first day. Up till that point if you didn't like what you heard you could walk out and it didn't cost you anything, they were obviously not teaching the class to make money, and both instructors are officers. If you recall the Ohio CCW laws were not nearly as friendly when it was first implemented, there has definitely been progress made. I didn't feel the 12 hours was a hardship.

The stupid thing is that (based on your general description) this course probably didn't meet the law's requirements:

Quote:
(G)(1) Each course, class, or program described in division (B)(3)(a), (b), (c), or (e) of this section shall provide to each person who takes the course, class, or program the web site address at which the pamphlet prepared by the Ohio peace officer training commission pursuant to section 109.731 of the Revised Code that reviews firearms, dispute resolution, and use of deadly force matters may be found. Each such course, class, or program described in one of those divisions shall include at least twelve hours of training in the safe handling and use of a firearm that shall include all of the following:

(a) At least ten hours of training on the following matters: (i) The ability to name, explain, and demonstrate the rules for safe handling of a handgun and proper storage practices for handguns and ammunition;

(ii) The ability to demonstrate and explain how to handle ammunition in a safe manner;

(iii) The ability to demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to shoot a handgun in a safe manner;

(iv) Gun handling training.

(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.

If you take a couple hours out of a 12-hour course to deal with the law, then you haven't met the requirements specified in the law.

I'm not saying folks shouldn't learn the law... just mentioning what the law says they should learn. :)

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:32 pm 
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Interesting.. I think it's very important to understand the state law if you plan to carry.. Yes safe firearms handling and general knowledge is important, but having a true understanding of the law might prevent you from doing something utterly stupid.

I would hope everyone has already had a general firearms safety course and some training before going for a CCW license :(

Well that was what over 5 years ago so it could very well have been as you describe.. maybe I just don't recall the gun safety info since I've had that repeatedly, (hunters safety, NRA handgun course, etc., etc. ), and the legal items we discussed stuck with me more since it was new and pertinent info.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:24 pm 
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We had 12 hrs of class room time. 8 of that was going through the law book cover to cover. Roger Polks class in Wadsworth. That was last weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:38 am 
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NRAInstructor wrote:
glockfanjohn wrote:
The Basis for 12 hours was because the old NRA Basic Pistol Lesson plan took 10 hours to complete. The state of Ohio used this as a guide when forming the law on training and added 2 hours for review of the Ohio CCW booklet. Plain and simple. As far as fees.......if you spent as much time and money as it takes to become and instructor I think you would think twice about that statement. For all those who feel that instructors make tons of money doing what we do they are mistaken. Speaking for myself I do it because of my love for the 2nd Amendment and to teach people that guns are not weapons as everyone feels... but are guns. Educating someone that has never fired a gun and teaching them safety and fundementals is a great feeling. Not everyone that takes the class has fired a gun and you need to be able to teach to that level. I personnely will not compromise my teaching principles to shorten a class...in fact I will teach as long as it takes to make a student comfortable.


I have to disagree with that. The Ohio Attorney General's Office used to have a CHL "Model Lesson Plan", for OPOTC trainers. It has since been removed (or I can't find it on the site). It is much different than the NRA Basic Pistol Course.

The NRA Basic Pistol Course is supposed to be 8 hours, not 10 but should be allowed extra time for certain students depending on factors such as prior experience, how easy they learn etc.

The Law says the CCW course needs to be 12 hours- 10 hours classroom and 2 hours live fire/range experience. So, what many Instructors do is go over all the NRA material(which does cover the required topics), go to the range for 2 hours, then come back and talk about Ohio laws or specific CHL topics and answer questions to fill the time. NRA Instructors should not be giving legal advice unless they are lawyers. What they should be doing is DISCUSSING legal issues with the group as private citizens after making it quite clear that this is not intended to be legal advice, not part of the NRA program, and it is each of thier responsibilities to learn the laws and when in doubt consult an attorney.

So why 12 hours?? I have no idea. I've had classes where we could have covered everything in 6 hours because of the student(s) prior knowledge, and have others that went on for 13 or so and I wished we had more time.

As far as John's comment about not making money and doing it to promote safety, we are 100% on the same page.


NRAInstructor,

I have both the Lesson Plan and the Letter introducing it downloaded.

The letter is dated March 22, 2007 and the Lesson Plan is dated Jan. 1, 2007. I downloaded them both on 04/02/2007. The letter is Marc Dann's letterhead.

So, this stuff did not appear until 3 YEARS after licenses were available and legal. I can't remember the exact date, but the lesson plan had the original "plain sight for vehicular carry" in it and I think that was changed before this was released, or in any case they KNEW that the change was in the pipeline and what day it would happen.

The NRA 10 hour class + 2 hours for the AG Book (which was originally to have been a tri-fold pamphlet) is the correct answer.

NRA Basic Pistol is 8 hours classroom and 2 hours range, for 10 hours total.

Early on the OPOTA people were going to train all LE, EMT, Paramedics and ER Personnel about the new law and how to safely clear a firearm and lock it up in a lockbox if they encountered one. They were also going to put out this model course lesson plan.

They intended on doing this by DELAYING IMPLEMENTATION another 90 days past the time the laws said the bill had to have to take effect. Some people got word of this and got hold of the Representatives, who said "it is going to start when it is supposed to, YOU (OPOTA) are NOT going to delay it any longer.

So, they took their ball and went home. NO training for LE, EMTs, Paramedics or ER Workers. Also, since they could not control things, they managed to get the lesson plan out THREE YEARS AFTER THE LAW TOOK EFFECT!

Buckshot

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:51 am 
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quietlion wrote:
We had 12 hrs of class room time. 8 of that was going through the law book cover to cover. Roger Polks class in Wadsworth. That was last weekend.


quietlion,

As JABeatty pointed out above by pasting in the appropriate law, by your own description the course you took DID NOT meet the required standards and was therefore illegal!

Just like the NRA WILL NOT PERMIT AN INSTRUCTOR TO CHANGE THEIR COURSE, no instructor is free to teach what they want WITHOUT first teaching the subjects and times as required by the State in the ORC!

While Mr. Polk may well teach an interesting class, if he is teaching in the manner you indicate he IS NOT following the law and therefore his classes would be just as null and void as those short-cutting the time of the course and those "selling certificates" with little or no class attendance, both of which are, last I heard, working through the court system to impose penalties on the instructors that did those deeds!

Buckshot

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Training requirment, why 12 hours?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:49 am 
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Buckshot,

Thanks for the info. I am still learning- when I post something and someone corrects me I learn. That's why I'm on the forum. If you have the OPOTC Model lesson plan, please email it to me. I printed it out about 2 years ago (haven't even looked at it since) and lost it. Just kind of curious, maybe it's not how I remember it. I have the old NRA Basic Pistol Training Guide (dated 9-05) and it says 8 hours. It also says 8 hours on the NRA site. It used to be 10, like John said. I am aware of what the law requires me to cover, and I do cover all of it. I haven't been around since the begining- I may very well be wrong on some things. This is an interesting post to me, even though it's starting to make my head hurt. :lol:

What I do personally (to comply with ohio laws and NRA policy) is as follows:

Introduce myself, let the students introduce themselves and talk about thier experience/training so we all know eachother and I get a heads-up on who may need special attention. Then I explain that the NRA does not have a CCW class, we are simply allowed to teach this class. I tell everyone this will be very basic safety stuff, we will not be rolling around in mud or shooting from behind cover, etc. I tell them after we go through the NRA material and take the test we will be shooting for 2 hours minimum. This Introduction is much longer than what I typed here, but that is a summary. I then explain that after we get back from the range, we are done with the NRA Basic Pistol Program. That is usually around the 10 hour mark (I get long-winded telling stories and answering questions). We all come back and open up the Ohio CHL book and discuss everything in there and cover everything in the book. If there is extra time, I have a million other things we can talk about that may be helpful, depending on the group. Usually I have to rush through certian sections just to keep everything on schedule. At the end of the class, when I am filling out certificates and the students are doing evaluations, I tell them to feel free to contact me if they forgot to ask something, ever want to come shooting or ANYTHING- I'm there for them. If I don't know the answer I will not guess (unlike how I do one here), but I will try to find someone who does know. I also explain that they just went through everything the Ohio Law requires, but should by no means stop training.

I teach when I can (usually one to two classes a month with 5-10 students each class) and charge as little as possible to cover my own expenses and time. I have a full time job, so teaching is more of a hobby even though I take it very seriously. I have never had a bad evaluation. In fact, most people grade me 5 out of 5 on everything and write things like "great class had lots of fun" under additional comments. I am not bragging about that, it just makes me feel good. Several of my students have become friends of mine.

Below is a description from the NRA website of the Basic Pistol Program, copied and pasted today(yeah yeah I know it used to be 10)


Name : NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course


Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude for owning and operating a pistol safely.

More Details: This course is at least 8-hours long and includes classroom and range time learning to shoot revolvers and semi-automatic pistols. Students learn NRA’s rules for safe gun handling; pistol parts and operation; ammunition; shooting fundamentals; range rules; shooting from the bench rest position, and two handed standing positions; cleaning the pistol; and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Pistol Shooting handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, take a Basics of Pistol Shooting Student Examination, and course completion certificate. (Lesson Plan 2nd edition, 2009)

[email protected]

_________________
Joel
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Centerburg Conservation Club Trustee
CCC Range committee and Lake committee
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If you like guns, click here! https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/sign ... ID=nranews


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