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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:20 pm
Homicide is the 4th leading cause of death among children....Which sounds very alarming if that's all you say...until you point out that it accounts for less than 5% of deaths, with accidents being the leading cause at 39%...

If you break down accidents...14 children are accidentally killed by firearms each year...but 40 suffocate - and the leading cause of THAT is children sleeping in their parents' beds...Drowning accounted for 159 but you're right, Aaron, people are far more willing to crusade against guns than against swimming pools...

You can make statistics say just about anything you want to...These are found at http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Kids.html if anyone is interested.

Beth

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -Anon.
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:34 pm
If they flat out lie about the data you have them.

However their presumption is that any death that is caused by a bullet is a "gun death".

Accident, suicide, justified homicide, firing squad Gary Gilmore style, all gun deaths in their mindset. Drugs and alcohol were present at a LOT of those deaths too, but for some reason they are not drug and alcohol related ? In Ohio most of the suicides were white males.....



Bill

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:38 pm
Kellerman's study looked at the prevalence of gun deaths in a home where there was a firearm and concluded that firearms in the home resulted in an increased rate of death. Never mind that 1) the attacker did not use the gun already in the home in ONE SINGLE case but instead brought his own, 2) they looked at deaths in an already high crime area, which might lead people to buy guns for self-protection, or 3) they neglected to account for or even find out how many people involved, whether victim or assailant, were involved in crime already or took drugs.

Beth

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -Anon.
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:45 pm
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
Kellerman's study looked at the prevalence of gun deaths in a home where there was a firearm and concluded that firearms in the home resulted in an increased rate of death. Never mind that 1) the attacker did not use the gun already in the home in ONE SINGLE case but instead brought his own, 2) they looked at deaths in an already high crime area, which might lead people to buy guns for self-protection, or 3) they neglected to account for or even find out how many people involved, whether victim or assailant, were involved in crime already or took drugs.


You can construct numbers to support anything you want to support.

One study that said some huge percentage of women have been raped in their lifetime included

Trading sex for drugs or money
Waking up in the morning and wishing you had not had sex the night before
Having sex for money but not getting paid as agreed.

When confronted by people about that kind of data the researcher said "well get your own grant and do your own study then".

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:50 pm
How deep are there pockets? Would massive letters, emails, & phone calls disrupt their services and cost them more money? If you have the pockets, would filinig a lawsuit (for any reason) bring them closer to an end? Depending on how their business is classified, is it possible to see what government agencies use their services or recieved/get monies from their org? What about their organizers and leaders, who are they and what do they stand for?

I just noticed that they want to repeal the CCL laws, they claim it is unpopular.

I just want to throw this out there ... most of my life, I read in the papers or see on the news, how some left wing PETA group or anti extream left wing group attacks kills or destroys... but all my memory I can think of one moment that a Pro-Firearm org or person has done the things that these folks do.
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:51 pm
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
The actual numbers are not going to matter much to an anti. One life is too many to lose to gun violence.

Antis do not understand guns, or how shooting can be enjoyable, and people fear what they don't understand. Trust me - been there, done that. When Tom finally convinced me to let him bring his guns out, I was afraid to touch them. I was afraid they would just go off. I was afraid to shoot one; every anti hears about "recoil" and think the gun will tear their arm off. You see people on TV being shot and they go flying backwards and crash through the wall, well, that's what an anti thinks is going to happen. So with all that power and potential for injury to the SHOOTER, why would anyone even want to own a gun? Let alone shoot one? Only because they are a crazed evil maniac who wants to mow down innocent women and children.

That's why I say educate the ignorant. Look at me. 2 years ago I wouldn't have let my kids play with squirt guns. Now I own several *real* guns. But I learned that gun owners are nice people, they don't shoot other people for fun, and guns won't leap up and shoot wildly on their own. Once I got that far, it was a short step to seeing the *good* possibilities in gun ownership.

If you're going to counter the antis' arguments, you've got to understand where they're coming from in the first place.




You are right Beth. When I first saw this post I was too mad to write a comment.

I still have my first 22 rifle from when I was in grade school and the year I moved out on my own, the deer I killed along with beans was pretty much what feed me through the winter. I've been around guns all my life so when there is a tragedy where someone is killed by a nut or crackhead, my first thought is too bad someone didn't take them out first.

My wife was like you were as far as not being around guns and being afraid of them. Now after being around me for over 30 years ( darn I'm getting old :) ) , she now thinks the same way because she knows that it is only in fairytales that the bad guys will follow the gun laws. So now she has her CHL to level the playing field.

We have to find ways to educate the people before the tragedies happen because unfortunately they will always be moved more by their feelings than their intellect. When Britain's school shooting of 1996 happened, the mood against handguns was finished. Never mind that shooting deaths have not declined there and
Quote:
number of crimes in which a handgun was used in England and Wales has risen from 299 in 1995 to 1,024 last year.
The Washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01794.html

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902)
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:07 am
Buckeye Dan wrote:
Beth I went all the way back to the mid to late 80s. We've never had 1000 deaths due to homicide period. As far as I can tell we've never hit 1000 deaths in the history of the state. That is total deaths due to homicide and not the ones related to guns which is a smaller number.


Buckeye Dan,

Right there is your glitch.

YOU said homicides.

They said "deaths due to gun violence".

Gun violence, to them, includes ANYTHING that has anything to do with a gun. Criminals killing people, cops killing criminals, hunting accidents, gang warfare, suicides, druggies found dead with a gun on them, probably others I can't think of.

Add them ALL together, never mind that no honest researcher would.

A little short? Add in military deaths, blame them ALL on guns, even training accidents caused by vehicles or parachutes!

Buckshot

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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:10 am
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.... (Mark Twain, I think....)

BFA is selling Guy Smith's book - "Shooting The Bull" - that covers a good deal of this, and isn't a bad read, either.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Gun-Stuff-Mall#bull

Let's not use the term "gun violence" or "gun crime", either.... Is it any worse that somebody is killed with a gun v.s. a baseball bat? Those are "code" used against us....

I like the idea of trying to make 'em prove their numbers, though, but it reminds me of the accountant:

Me: "OK, Newman, how much is 2 + 2?"

Newman: "How much do you want it to be?"

The anti's like to define things in ways that make us look bad - like defining "child" as up to 25 years old, or disregarding the number of suicides included in a deaths count. The frame of reference has to be the same, or the numbers, if not the whole argument, is meaningless.

A critical look at that web page, btw, shows that just about every bullet point is false, or at least the result of serious misrepresentation. "Unlicensed gun dealers", just to top it, is a canard. While the ATF gets bent out of shape if you're making money selling guns in any sort of quantity, it's still perfectly legal to sell that gun you really didn't want/need last spring when your IRS check showed up. It's called "fact to face", involving individuals selling a couple guns every once in a while.

"One gun a month?" Anybody ever see any value to that? The Mexican Drug Cartels aren't going to obey that, even if they were getting their guns from the US, which they're not, if you don't count the one's that Zero's friends at ATF arranged to sell them, allowing him to blame us for the Mexican violence problems....

And so forth....

Regards,

Stu

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:58 am
Notice,the letterhead resembles BFA letterhead...Sneaky Bass-turds
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Post subject: Re: Legal Recourse
Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 pm
The numbers are in. Apparently they can loosely make their claims. It's pretty much how we all figured it would look and the data consists of exactly what we expected.

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