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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:21 am
Makes me kinda wish my young'uns was high school age again.I'd send'em to school wearin T'shirts with BUCKEYE FIREAMS ASSOCIATION on the back. Da Komrade.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:24 am
My son took a handful of empty brass in for show and tell once, in 4th grade...no I didn't know until his teacher asked me about it...fortunately although she wasn't a gun person she could kinda tell it was empty...if it had been a different teacher he could have been suspended for that.

Beth

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -Anon.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:11 am
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
My son took a handful of empty brass in for show and tell once, in 4th grade...no I didn't know until his teacher asked me about it...fortunately although she wasn't a gun person she could kinda tell it was empty...if it had been a different teacher he could have been suspended for that.


When I was in HS in the 80's one kid took a 12 gauge pump in for a demonstration in English class. He had to have it in a case, and leave it with the teacher before school....the teacher was even mildly anti-gun.

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:38 am
It is scary that we have these idiots teaching our children. :oops:

Kids have been expelled for drawing a picture of a soldier with a GUN! Nope! We cannot have our children accepting our military!

Kids have been expelled for using their fingers and pointing them at someone!

The inmates are in charge of the asylum and are training our children.

You want to know how we get these extremist anti gun people? They have been trained in our school system by our tax dollars :twisted:

aka OhioPaints
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:02 pm
I think it's interesting that the research done by the American Psychological Association of the Zero Tolerance policy over the last 20 years concludes that in most cases it doesn't do what the proponents of the Zero Tolerance Policy says it does, and in most cases it does the opposite.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/63/9/852/
Quote:
Although there can be no dispute that schools must do all that can be done to ensure the safety of learning environments, controversy has arisen about the use of zero tolerance policies and procedures to achieve those aims. In response to that controversy, and to assess the extent to which current practice benefits students and schools, the American Psychological Association convened a task force to evaluate the evidence and to make appropriate recommendations regarding zero tolerance policies and practices. An extensive review of the literature found that, despite a 20-year history of implementation, there are surprisingly few data that could directly test the assumptions of a zero tolerance approach to school discipline, and the data that are available tend to contradict those assumptions. Moreover, zero tolerance policies may negatively affect the relationship of education with juvenile justice and appear to conflict to some degree with current best knowledge concerning adolescent development. To address the needs of schools for discipline that can maintain school safety while maximizing student opportunity to learn, the report offers recommendations for both reforming zero tolerance where its implementation is necessary and for alternative practice to replace zero tolerance where a more appropriate approach is indicated. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)


In 5th Grade we were required to bring a pocket knife to school, we were doing a carving project for art class. Now you are expelled for eating with your cub scout camp utensil because it has a knife on it. So much for that kid who was proud for about a whole minute that he was a cub scout.

We played TAG (Assassin Game) When I was in high School. There had to be every bit of 500 or more students involved in the game, across all social groups, from jocks, nerds, burn-outs, preppies, cheerleaders, etc. They would have expelled 25% of the student body in our school with a policy like this. Yes we had our toy guns in the school, but you couldn't assassinate anyone until at least 1/2 Hour after school let out for the day. yes we were guilt of shooting at each other during class or in the halls.. several people had their weapons confiscated for disruption.

Another teen was expelled because there were two shotguns and knife in his truck from his duck hunting trip. The catch is he did NOT bring his truck onto school property.. Zero tolerance seems to have along reach when it reaches outside school property, into your private life, and inside your private property that is parked on a public street.

Eagle Scout Suspended, fears missing out on his dream and not getting into West Point due to marring his record because of Zero Tolerance policy. The kid was raised to always be prepared.. We cheered for the kids in Red Dawn, this kid has a backpack in his trunk with some basic survival gear, an MRE and a pocket knife that is Cop grandfather gave him with a 2" blade. To him it was having a tool and being responsible, to the school he was obviously a master villain.

My problem is not with having a rule or policy at a school, it's the way that it is enforced, when no thought to intent is given. all students are painted with a broad brush. School is supposed to help our young people develop into a useful part of society, but if you expel them for their first minor infraction what did you teach that student ? maybe you just taught them that it doesn't matter how hard you work in life, the fist time you screw up, even if it was unintentional and in a minor way, we are going to take everything away from you. Nice lesson.

When your kid breaks the rules at home do you give them the same punishment for every offense ? 10 lashes with a leather belt, Stand in the corner on one foot for two hours with your nose in the corner and grounded for a month with no TV, Phone, Computer, or video games ? I highly doubt it. You probably look at the offense, and determine a punishment that will convey your displeasure, that will deter them from making the same error a second time, but will not ultimately lead to them hating you as a parent.

People shouldn't expect kids to never screw up. That's what growing up and learning is all about, learning from your mistakes, and becoming a better person. making the appropriate corrections to encourage the person to become a healthy young adult is what the process should be about. Expelling students for various infractions, with no other alternative corrections or punishments, from my view point, does not encourage healthy growth.

You can sit there and say "Yeah but they broke the rules" all you want. I still say the process is a load of dung.

--
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"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

- Thomas Paine
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:33 pm
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
My son took a handful of empty brass in for show and tell once, in 4th grade...no I didn't know until his teacher asked me about it...fortunately although she wasn't a gun person she could kinda tell it was empty...if it had been a different teacher he could have been suspended for that.

He could have been expelled, failed a grade because of it, not gotten into certain colleges because of it, or in other ways generally had his future ruined, over an innocent mistake that was not done in a malicious manner. Such is the benefit of a "zero tolerance" program.

Bang Bang Beth wrote:
Rules is rules. If the rules say, No guns or approximations of guns (toys, BB guns, Tshirts, whatever) and you take one to school, you should be prepared to be suspended at the very least.

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:36 pm
gmhiggins wrote:
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
My son took a handful of empty brass in for show and tell once, in 4th grade...no I didn't know until his teacher asked me about it...fortunately although she wasn't a gun person she could kinda tell it was empty...if it had been a different teacher he could have been suspended for that.


He could have been expelled, failed a grade because of it, not gotten into certain colleges because of it, or in other ways generally had his future ruined, over an innocent mistake that was not done in a malicious manner. Such is the benefit of a "zero tolerance" program.

Bang Bang Beth wrote:
Rules is rules. If the rules say, No guns or approximations of guns (toys, BB guns, Tshirts, whatever) and you take one to school, you should be prepared to be suspended at the very least.


But rules is still rules. If I don't like the rules, then it's up to me to do what I can to change them. Not teach him that he can simply ignore the ones he doesn't like. And I disliked the rules enough that I kept my kids home for school for 4 years.

Beth

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -Anon.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:42 pm
Bang Bang Beth wrote:
But rules is still rules. If I don't like the rules, then it's up to me to do what I can to change them. Not teach him that he can simply ignore the ones he doesn't like. And I disliked the rules enough that I kept my kids home for school for 4 years.


But should he be punished the exact same as a child who brought live ammunition with the intent to put it into a firearm and shoot the school up?

This isn't a case of bad children doing whatever they want (in either of these scenarios). Should they be punished? Yep. But they should not be punished the same as someone doing it intentionally or with malice.

To ignore your rights is a giant slap in the face to our Constitution, our freedom, and every single man and woman who has died protecting them.
We didn't lose our rights overnight. To think we'll get them back overnight is simply foolish.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:46 pm
gmhiggins wrote:

But should he be punished the exact same as a child who brought live ammunition with the intent to put it into a firearm and shoot the school up?

This isn't a case of bad children doing whatever they want (in either of these scenarios). Should they be punished? Yep. But they should not be punished the same as someone doing it intentionally or with malice.


*Should* he? No, of course not. I'm not saying I think zero-tolerance is RIGHT. IMHO, it's the lazy-man's way out - you don't have to know your students, you don't have to know *why* they did whatever it was, you don;t have to think up creative punishments that might actually teach them something, you don't have to argue with p-o'ed parents who want to know why some other kids did the same thing and got less punishment.

But I am not going to teach my kids to ignore rules. I'll teach them to stand up and fight for what's right, and to work to change unjust rules.

Beth

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -Anon.
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:51 pm
"Zero tolerance" is a escape for school administrators who have zero intelligence.

Those who cannot tell the difference between a real gun and a sketch of a gun need to find another job. They are not mature enough to be teaching kids.

Those who think "school property" extends forever need a basic education in property rights.

aka OhioPaints
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:57 pm
Ken45 wrote:
"Zero tolerance" is a escape for school administrators who have zero intelligence.

Those who cannot tell the difference between a real gun and a sketch of a gun need to find another job. They are not mature enough to be teaching kids.

Those who think "school property" extends forever need a basic education in property rights.


Zero tolerance is in response to admins who are incompetent, or do not do their jobs, or have some new age pie in the sky ideas about discipline.

America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions
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Post subject: Re: 5 students suspended - Expulsion possible.
Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:17 pm
School administrators are required to enforce board policy, which is enacted by 5 elected officials. If they don't, they are subject to termination. If you don't like the policy, run for school board and change it.

It pays to be a winner.
Tinman93
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