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Post subject: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:17 pm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/02/19/masked-gunmans-plan-foiled-by-the-second-amendment-and-the-surveillance-camera-caught-it-all-graphic/

This is a great story. Legally armed citizen defends himself and co-workers, all the good guys go home and the bad guy? Well he is dead.
Sounds like an over all win but the video tells a different story, at least from a trainers perspective. With combat handgun shooting I stress proper grip to ensure fast and accurate follow up shots. I also stress driving the gun to the threat/target and shoot them to the ground. There is no magic number we need should engage a threat with. Study enough shootings and you will find that a lot of the good guys/gals shoot 3-8 rounds during the confrontation. So subscribing to the tactic of "double taps" it not necessarily a realistic option for those engaged in combat with a handgun.
So lets dissect the video from a training perspective.

42 seconds into the video- Don Radcliff (good guy) fires his first shot and his left hand pops off the gun. This is common and is caused by a poor support hand grip.

43 seconds into the video- You see Don lower his weapon. I see this far too often during training. Shooters love looking at where their shot went. I would be l willing to bet Don is reflexively looking for his shot placement because he has done it thousands of times before.

43 seconds a few frames, Don reacquires his support hand (left hand) grip and you can see his left thumb wraps behind the slide. Not good for grip, function of the weapon or your thumb.

45 seconds into the video Don fires his second shot and the left hand flies off the weapon. I am guessing the slide hit his thumb. You also see the gun lower again. Is Don looking for shot placement? It also looks like he may have glanced at his thumb because the slide hit it. Either way he is not focused on the threat.

47 seconds into the video and Don fires his third and final round. This time the head/gun separation or Don looking at his target is very obvious.

3 rounds in roughly 5 seconds and we are not timing the draw/presentation of the handgun. Even in my 4 hour class we end by firing 5 rounds in 3.5 seconds at 15 feet in a 7x7 inch box. In any of our 8 hour handgun classes we accomplish 5 rounds in 3.5 seconds at 15 feet in a 3x6 inch box.

It all comes down to proper grip, making the sights your mission and committing to proper trigger control. Lastly, we shoot the threat to the ground.

On a side note... The second shot Don fired hit the bad guy's weapon. It is very common for weapons, hands and arms to be hit during a gun fight. Learn to run your gun one handed, left and right. Attempting to learn these skills during a fight is not in your best interest.

Stay Safe, Andrew

To whom much is given much is expected

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:20 pm
What you wrote may be true and .56% of those that carry maybe payed attention to your analysis.

But, 99.44% just don't care. The good guy pulled his gun fired 3 shots and the bad guy is dead.

How do I know this??? Because I'm the first to respond to your post in over 24 hours. Yes, about 30 people looked at your post in that 24 hour period; that's .0001% of gun owners.

Don't get me wrong, I did read your post and did ponder you thoughts. Thank you for posting. But, as I said: 99.44% just don't care. The good guy pulled his gun fired 3 shots and the bad guy is dead.

Just my observation.
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:11 pm
^ I posted over on OFCC.org, as did many others. So far, there, 18 replies, 270+ views (IIRC).

I did not originally mean to reply to the thread - but the topic derailed a little there, and I felt compelled to address a side-issue.

Maybe some simply read but did not have anything to write as a way of reply. I certainly fell into this category. I took the lessons that ApexShootingTactics had to give: I certainly missed the fact that the shooter had not established a good grip on the firearm and was likely looking at his shot-placement.

As with you, I certainly appreciate Andrew's efforts.

I think you're right - many probably simply do not care.

But there are those of us who are thankful that there's instructors out there like ApexShootingTactics, who will take the time to offer up these free golden nuggets. :)

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:14 pm
I am only worried about helping those who want to be helped.

Too many people think they will rise to the occasion but in reality you will default to your level of training.

You guys stay safe and thanks for the feedback.

Stay Safe, Andrew

To whom much is given much is expected

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:36 pm
ApexShootingTactics wrote:
Too many people think they will rise to the occasion but in reality you will default to your level of training.


I think some people do manage to rise to the occasion - by sheer luck or sheer will. :)

I'd like to say that I'll rise to the occasion, but I honestly don't know if I'm that lucky, and as for will-power? I have yet to be able to quit eating chicken wings. :oops:

As for the second part of your outlook, I'll go one further: that the level one defaults to is not their level of training, but rather, the level of skill which they have truly mastered.

If I can fall to my training, I'd be pretty decent.

But alas, defaulting to those skills which I have mastered? Yep, I need more practice! :oops:

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:02 am
I'm not challenging ApexShootingTactics's observation.

The true fact is for the average person who acquired a CCL had two hours of range time. And in reality 10 minutes of shooting. That is it.

Us on these forums wish we had the time and money to get additional training. Home practice is about it. We all hope we never have to be put to the test.

For what it's worth your observation was appreciated.
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:13 am
color of law wrote:
I'm not challenging ApexShootingTactics's observation.


My apologies if you took my words differently than I intended. :oops: I certainly was not implying that you were.

Quote:
The true fact is for the average person who acquired a CCL had two hours of range time. And in reality 10 minutes of shooting. That is it.


That's definitely how I see it, too.

I was simply suggesting that there may be other reasons for the lack of response here on this Forum.

How many members are there in BFA? How many actively read the Forums? How many actively post?

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:09 am
I thought I saw him pop off the safety or rack the slide, I could be mistaken, but it appears he's pressing on something before raising his weapon. And that poor lady who was right there, probably rang her ears for a day. But none the less it was quick and he appeared to have control.
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:49 pm
Apex must have went thru the video frame by frame.

Apex did a good write up and seen things I had a hard time seeing after 3 watch thru's (like the 2nd shot hitting the gun, never did see that)
What concerned me more then how he ran the gun was the angle of attack, it seemed like if he would have went over to the right of the screen he could have shot from behind the counter where it was higher, probably not enough to stop a bullet but instead he was firing with one of his employee's basically like a human shield, he popped off a shot right behind his head.

also Im sure not much thought was given to a customer that had just left.. if you watch you see him in the window outside.

now im not one of those people who would suggest accepting death before take a shot that MIGHT hit someone unintended.. but if he had moved to the right before engaging his shots would have been more facing the wall then the window.

But on the other hand that would have left him with innocents on either side.. so maybe that's a bad call.

At the end of the day the bad guys dead, good guys alive.
which is the 2nd best outcome possible.

while maybe not a flawless victory, it's a victory none the less and since I've never been in a gun fight (and hopefully never am) who the hell am I to pick the guy apart.

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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:22 pm
Joe Sixpack wrote:
...who the hell am I to pick the guy apart.


I think "picking apart" as a bad connotation, and that should not be. :ewink: :)

Here's what I mean -

TSiWRX wrote:
Why is it that every time someone - anyone - critiques a successful defensive shooting and suggest areas for improvement that we, as a community, get all bent out of shape about it?

:?:

No-one here is arguing about the right to self defense being just that, a basic human right.

No-one here is arguing that armed self-defense should fall under the mandate of any governing body.

No-one here is arguing that training is absolutely necessary to mount successful self-defense, armed or not.

What ApexShootingTactics is doing here is looking at what took place in a dispassionate manner, and picking apart the actions so that we can all learn from what took place.

Is a successful defensive shooting a great outcome?

I don't think that anyone in our community will say that it is not.

But does it mean that there is no room for improvement? Does it mean that there is no lesson to be learned?

Does seeking to better oneself through training or seeking to help others by offering training somehow negate the principle that armed self defense is a right that shall not be infringed? Does not the very idea of getting better through practice (essentially, this is what "training" is, no?) itself fit precisely the ideal of self-reliance that we so cherish in our community?

To take a look at these events with a critical eye in no way diminish the value of their outcome. Furthermore, it helps us all improve, so that we can better our odds, if that day ever comes.

This is not about training or no training.

This is simply about being able to learn from the actions - both the successes and shortcomings - of others.


Are we picking apart the man's actions?

Yes, we are.

But we are not doing so to belittle him or his efforts.

We are doing so with the intent of learning to be better armed citizens.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:53 am
I hear ya, Could he have done better? YES, Are any of us really in a position to critique his performance? A slim few I'd imagine.

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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:38 am
^ I think we can all provide constructive criticism.

No one instructor knows it all, and even the experienced can well miss something obvious.

I think that as long as one provides constructive criticism in a respectful and genuine manner, this kind of thought exercise can benefit all.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:46 am
The operation was a success, but the patient died.

Over analyzing can skew/sabotage the intended result.

Time, place and manner will always interfere with the intended outcome.

I'm just sayn......
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:38 pm
color of law wrote:
The operation was a success, but the patient died.

Over analyzing can skew/sabotage the intended result.

Time, place and manner will always interfere with the intended outcome.

I'm just sayn......


I'm not sure I understand -

That's why hospitals conduct routine MMR meetings.

I think it's always good to discuss both successes and failures - and to know that even in success, there is still always room for improvement, for better.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:51 pm
TSiWRX wrote:
color of law wrote:
The operation was a success, but the patient died.

Over analyzing can skew/sabotage the intended result.

Time, place and manner will always interfere with the intended outcome.

I'm just sayn......


I'm not sure I understand -

That's why hospitals conduct routine MMR meetings.

I think it's always good to discuss both successes and failures - and to know that even in success, there is still always room for improvement, for better.


color of law wrote:
The operation was a success, but the patient died.

Example: The good guy hit every mark of his extensive training and the bad guy hit every mark of his limited training, but the bad guy hit his marks faster than the good guy.

color of law wrote:
Over analyzing can skew/sabotage the intended result.

Example: In the heat of the moment an incorrect grip resulting in the slide cutting your hand being insignificant in effecting the intended outcome becomes a never ending discussion as to how it SHOULD have effected the positive result.

color of law wrote:
Time, place and manner will always interfere with the intended outcome.
Example: Every scenario trained for will never be the situation you are faced with.

My point is don't over analyze, letting the trees getting in the way of the forest so to speak.
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