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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:21 pm
color of law wrote:
Example: The good guy hit every mark of his extensive training and the bad guy hit every mark of his limited training, but the bad guy hit his marks faster than the good guy.


No one is denying that luck has a lot to do with any type of violent confrontation.

Luckily for the defender and the innocents involved, luck played to their favor.

We cannot discuss luck as a tactic - it is simply the randomness of the universe. It will always play a role.

But if it is not luck that we're talking about, and rather, that it is a lack of sufficient training on the part of the defender or, alternatively, a failure of the defender to simply recognize that he/she is, for whatever reason, tactically out-matched, then that's a whole other matter.

color of law wrote:
Example: In the heat of the moment an incorrect grip resulting in the slide cutting your hand being insignificant in effecting the intended outcome becomes a never ending discussion as to how it SHOULD have effected the positive result.


color of law wrote:
Every scenario trained for will never be the situation you are faced with.

My point is don't over analyze, letting the trees getting in the way of the forest so to speak.


So we should never discuss potential mistakes? Never practice or plan? Never see any room for improvement simply because "something worked, it was good enough?"

Is that not the antithesis of learning? of growth?

Again, no-one is denying that this was a positive outcome.

No-one is saying that the pharmacist who successfully defended himself and the innocents is anything less than a hero.

If those two parameters define the forest, I do not think that any of us have missed it.

But the trees are worth noting because they define the forest.

The health of the trees tell of the condition of the forest. The specifics are the learning points.

And there are always learning points.

I won't cross-post what ApexShootingTactics posted in the thread on OFCC.org simply because I don't believe it is my place to be speaking for him - but the point he made is similar to my own.

If we don't specifically look for how we can improve, how can we achieve better?

I know that personally, even in my successes that I can still find ways to improve. That there is always more to learn. There are always ways to be better.

And you're right, there's never a way to train for everything, but the more one trains and practices, the higher the likelihood that some subset of one's skill will come into play when faced with a violent confrontation.

Why do soldiers rehearse critical assaults?
Why do law-enforcement personnel train scenarios?
Why do surgeons prep for surgeries by watching old tapes and re-reading the text?
Why do top athletes and performance artists visualize their performances?

It may not go exactly the way we practiced it, but to suggest that there will be no real-life scenario that matches precisely training is, I believe, self-defeating. Why bother to practice at all, to strive to be better, if there is no guaranty that you will do better?

-Allen
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Location: Shaker Heights/Cleveland
Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:40 pm
TSiWRX,

First, I have no issues with ApexShootingTactics's critique. I read it with interest and appreciated his perspective.

Second, I believe you are taking my comments out of context. I was addressing the average citizen's mind set. For example: Those that ask for my opinion on what type of firearm to carry I usually recommend a hammerless double action revolver. Why, because the average CCL holder is not a "gun guy" and has no interest to learn what ApexShootingTactics is teaching. And that revolver has the least amount of skill sets required to operate.

But, I also believe even for the skilled that the keep it simple stupid mythology makes practice makes perfect easier to accomplish positive outcomes.

I guess my point is lets not over think the process, especially for the average CCL citizen.

And lastly I think we are close to beating a dead horse.
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:57 pm
^ Ah, now I understand where you're coming from.

I still do not agree, but I can understand where you're coming from. :) Thanks for the clarification.

-Allen
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:18 am
Hopefully the participants in this forum are more interested than average citizens, even armed ones, in subjects like this. But I think color of law's point is well taken and has been my take-a-step-back-look-at-the-big-picture observation as well. I only wish he'd try coming off just a little less curmudgeonly about it.

"I have decided not to vote, speak in public, assemble in groups or petition my government either directly or by writing to the newspapers.

Some ignorant person may become alarmed, and we can't have that.''

--CAR15A2, 3/31/09
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:07 pm
Posts: 1966
Location: SW Ohio
Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:21 am
I think we're all a bit curmudgeonly..... ;)

<shakes my fist at teenagers>

-Allen
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Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:10 pm
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Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:04 am
So I wrote an article about this incident and Sniper's Hide posted it on their website. Lots of good back and forth and I received some hate mail about, how dare I.... Anyways, Joe Good, the owner of the pharmacy and good friend/boss of Don (good guy in the shooting) read the article and posted his thoughts. He has a bit more info on the whole deal. I suggest checking it out...

http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5546-bear-pit/13781596-my-lessons-learned-from-pharmacy-robbery?s=541

Stay Safe, Andrew

To whom much is given much is expected

http://apexshooting.com

https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:56 pm
Posts: 130
Location: NE Ohio
Post subject: Re: Pharmacist 1, Bad Guy 0, But lets break down the video.
Post Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:45 am
ApexShootingTactics wrote:
So I wrote an article about this incident and Sniper's Hide posted it on their website. Lots of good back and forth and I received some hate mail about, how dare I.... Anyways, Joe Good, the owner of the pharmacy and good friend/boss of Don (good guy in the shooting) read the article and posted his thoughts. He has a bit more info on the whole deal. I suggest checking it out...

http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5546-bear-pit/13781596-my-lessons-learned-from-pharmacy-robbery?s=541

Joe Good, who owns the Good Family Pharmacy, clearly reviewed what happened and took stock of the good, bad and ugly. But, in the end his last statement places what happened in perspective.
Quote:
5 Witness. God protected Don and the rest of the people in the store. What a great opportunity it has given us to witness to others.
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