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Post subject: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:11 pm
I'm wanting to build a 14.5" upper and have a flash suppressor pinned and welded for a total of 16" long. From what I understand of the laws is you cannot posess a rifle lower and an "SBR" upper at the same time, even if they are not put together. I could probably get away with just building it and taking it to be welded without an issue, but I want to avoid any legal pitfalls period.

Would it suit the "posession" compliance if I say took all of my AR's to my brothers before I ordered the 14.5 barrel and left them in his possession until after I got the 14.5 welded into a 16?

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'd prefer to stay out of any BATFE confrontations.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:33 pm
Im not sure.

after all uppers less then 16 can be mounted as a pistol (no buttstock)

If what you said mere possession is enough then any one that has a ar15 rifle AND a ar15 pistol are at risk.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:31 am
From what I read, if your in possession of a "pistol" upper without a lower registered (when background check is completed) as a "pistol" you can get into trouble. I don't happen to have a pistol lower, nor do I want one. I don't want to be a victim of stupid gun laws either.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:59 am
CW78, my understanding matches yours. Likewise, as I understand it, if you are in possession of a short barreled upper and do not also have a pistol lower or lower registered as an SBR to which it can be attached, but do have a non-pistol / non-SBR lower, you are in violation. Whether that extends to a short barrel that is not assembled into an upper I don't know, but given the current BATFE approach to such things I wouldn't chance it. Having all of your AR's at your brothers before you take possession of the 14.5 barrel and leave them in his possession until after you get the 14.5 welded into a 16 you should be fine, as I understand it.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:35 pm
CW78 wrote:
From what I read, if your in possession of a "pistol" upper without a lower registered (when background check is completed) as a "pistol" you can get into trouble. I don't happen to have a pistol lower, nor do I want one. I don't want to be a victim of stupid gun laws either.


Yes it's my understanding as well that you can't reconfigure a rifle into a pistol once it's been a rifle.
Of course how does this apply to stripped lowers which aren't pistol or rifle?

There is no difference in the lower, the pistol simply has no butt stock, you still have a buffer tube sticking out back.
which is why I have no desire to have a ar15 pistol either, there are a few cleaner .223 pistols like the Keltec PLR-16

I was still under the impression configuration mattered, not possession.

anyone with a vertical grip (without a rifle currently configured to accept it) and a pistol with an accessory rail is at risk for example.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:43 pm
Joe Sixpack wrote:
I was still under the impression configuration mattered, not possession.

anyone with a vertical grip (without a rifle currently configured to accept it) and a pistol with an accessory rail is at risk for example.

It is called "constructive possession" and it is a real threat for exactly the reasons you and others have cited in this thread. Is it stupid? Yep. Does it make sense? Nope. But since when did the Gov't, especially the BATFE, ever make sense?

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:09 pm
Im aware of the concept of constructive possession, yes it's stupid but I was'nt aware it's universally applied to all laws, otherwise you could go into any home in America and find something to charge the owners with.

Are we all just guessing one way or the other here or does anyone have something concrete to point to? perhaps case law?

I do know having a auto sear you can be charged but that's a bit different since auto sear turns a gun into a "machine gun" where as a shorter barrel does not automatically = SBR.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:05 pm
First Google hit for "constructive possession sbr": http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/fl ... of-an-sbr/

Bottom line, as I understand it, the ATF has said that if you possess the components of an illegal weapon *and* no way to assemble them into something legal, you are guilty of possessing an illegal firearm by virtue of the concept of constructive possession.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:50 pm
Seems you're right mostly.

Apparently there was a court case and ATF ruling dealing with SBR's, pistols, and specifically Thompson Center contender/encore's

If I understand it right constructive possession here requires the items assembled items to be in "close proximity".
But what is close proximity? same container? arms reach? same room? same building?

The link you posted the guy likely lost the case (although did'nt see any update on the outcome) because he was selling the items as a set, the case cut out seems to suggest the gun may have been configured with the vertical grip at some point.

If he had also had a 16inch barrel in the kit he was selling he likely would have been fine.




From what I understand.

Rifle > Pistol = NFA
Pistol > Rifle = OK, > back to pistol = OK
This is why you sometimes see people on you tube video them selves building (stripped lower) AR-15's into pistols first before re-configuring them into rifles, easily done except you need access to a shorter then 16inch upper which could be a problem if you're not planing on keeping one in pistol configuration.. Apparently bare receivers are considered a pistol or rifle depending on it's first configuration.

How the factory shipped the gun is what counts.
Bare receivers, pistols, and "carbine" kits are ok, But rifles are always rifles.


The real gray area here is the "close proximity"
Quote:
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is
made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a)
serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm

Since "close" is a relative term, Having a ar-15 "rifle" AND a shorter then 16inch upper merely in your possession does not seem to be out right forbidden.

I would think CW's plan to take ar-15 "rifles" to his brothers would satisfy any definition of "close" but who knows.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-ru ... 2011-4.pdf

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:38 am
Thanks guys, My brother lives across town (20 min drive in good traffic), I should hope that would satisfy the "close proximity" and "constructive possession" gray areas. My plan is to take all my AR's to my brother's/order parts, receive parts, build upper, take to have pinned and welded all within a week or so depending on shipping times. I just don't want to fall in any gray area traps enroute to a legal firearm. Seeing the raid on that store in California for doing something completely witin the law has me a little paranoid.

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:40 pm
I just went through the same thing. As soon as I received shipping confirmation of the >16" barrel, I made sure I had a lower built into a "pistol" configuration. Never built the pistol, but if I had come under scrutiny, I would have had a bunch of pistol parts and not SBR parts. It's a moot point now as I have pinned and welded the barrel and built the rifle.

The hoops we jump through to stay on this side of the law... :roll:

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Post subject: Re: "Posession" SBR compliance
Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:40 am
Thanks. I'm about to get this one started as I'm finishing up my 24" .223 Wylde build. I'll have pics of that one up soon.

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