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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--

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  • 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--

    I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
    other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
    I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
    info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
    12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
    round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
    12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

    The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
    was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
    a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
    1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

    Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
    of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
    made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
    to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
    Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
    length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
    reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
    so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
    and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
    In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
    in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
    than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
    rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
    and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
    and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
    pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.

    More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
    regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
    heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
    out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
    case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
    .And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
    in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

    6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
    order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
    7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
    Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
    threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
    cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

    9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
    from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
    heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
    Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
    saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
    more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
    all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

  • #2

    Welcome aboard!

    Beautiful stuff, too!

    There's a sticky at that you should read. It's optional, but there's some information there about Rich 2.0, and when he sees this post, he'll likely be on the next camel. (He's not allowed on most public transportation, and most highways.... Camels seem to be the only thing that'll let him on board. Very dumb camels.... Very frightened camels....)

    So scatter the barbed wire, and dig the foxholes....


    <t>Stu<br><br>(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)<br><br>ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE<br><br>יזכר לא עד פעם</t>


    • #3
      We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
      are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
      being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
      And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
      the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
      Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
      12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
      And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
      sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
      longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
      firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
      shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
      cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
      and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
      Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
      cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
      applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
      others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
      from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
      game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
      but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
      varied all over the place.

      More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

      The first gun of mine to have this case was
      my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
      heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
      I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
      chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

      Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
      the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
      The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

      Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
      the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

      Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
      super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
      down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
      case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
      And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

      Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
      It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

      And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
      blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
      4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
      Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
      action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
      and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

      Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
      Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
      smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
      my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

      The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
      and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
      thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed


      • #4
        So the NEF appears to be the simplest project.

        What level of velocity can be wrung from them ?? What level of accuracy ?? Do you have BC data for the projectiles ??

        America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

        Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions


        • #5
          NEF--3.5" RMC brass case- 600gr Dixie slug 22-2400
          That slug with truncated cone nose, BC about .150.

          Now some info on cases and slugs
          The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
          great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
          cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
          pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
          And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
          case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
          This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
          fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
          it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

          3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
          the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
          turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
          4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
          with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
          one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
          then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
          RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
          5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
          basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
          bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
          and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
          50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
          another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

          More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
          1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
          along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
          in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
          in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
          brands of saboted slugs.

          2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
          600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
          3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
          diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
          used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
          little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
          4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs
          and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed


          • #6
            Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
            Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
            crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
            12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
            by threading them into the breach sections.
            First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
            barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

            4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
            5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
            The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
            That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.

            CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
            left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
            are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
            as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
            2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
            thicker and stronger our case is.

            3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
            being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
            4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.

            5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
            These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
            blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed


            • #7
              Some more gun info about what others around the world
              are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
              gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
              They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
              3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
              owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
              Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
              Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
              Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
              smooth bores.

              Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
              using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
              headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
              ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
              3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
              the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
              Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
              and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
              fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
              to get everything real fancy.

              4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
              CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
              5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
              light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
              Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
              used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
              3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
              Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
              90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
              and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
              shotgun pressures.

              More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
              bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
              shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
              Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
              are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
              2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
              REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
              and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
              these for slugs and sabots.
              1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
              is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
              if you want hairy load.

              3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
              4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
              die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
              5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
              Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed


              • #8
                Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
                action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
                work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
                It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

                Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
                chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
                case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
                the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
                The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
                kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
                as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
                of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
                to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

                Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
                a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
                smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
                factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
                with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
                belted case in it. Worked great.

                4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
                RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
                28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
                the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
                with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
                diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

                5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
                short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
                and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
                guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
                and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
                If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed


                • #9
                  NEF--3.5" RMC brass case- 600gr Dixie slug 22-2400
                  That slug with truncated cone nose, BC about .150.

                  Now some info on cases and slugs
                  The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
                  great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
                  cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
                  pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.

                  OK back to the NEF :-).

                  I am a machinist and I have a a couple lathes, so the 50 BMG based cases appeal to me. I would need to ream the NEF to 3.5" ??

                  I also have some of this brass around but it may be too short ?? It uses a flash tube.


                  America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

                  Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions


                  • #10
                    Yes you can ream chamber length to 3.5" for that length of plastic
                    or brass cases or 3.85" for our full length case built on bmg brass.
                    You could use spotter cases if no tubes in them, to make a
                    3" brass 12ga case. Can't have tube, be in the way of expanders
                    and primer punches.. When you make cases anneal top half
                    of the case before expanding.

                    What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
                    isn't super new or completely novel, most just
                    modernizing and improving older ideas..

                    In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
                    gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
                    12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
                    charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
                    about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

                    And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
                    And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
                    than we have today, so our work is a good extension
                    of what the early big bore guys did.

                    And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
                    Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.

                    Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
                    with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
                    from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
                    Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
                    Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
                    as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
                    but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
                    now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
                    Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

                    2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

                    2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
                    called the Field I think. Looks like some other
                    side levers, looks like lever works forward.

                    And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
                    start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
                    up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
                    bores only wider.

                    We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
                    out to the two bore size.
                    And a square hole for breach block done
                    in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed


                    • #11
                      Some more stuff from the old days---
                      First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
                      they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
                      speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
                      These guns had short section of rifling at the end
                      of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
                      than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
                      and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.

                      Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
                      8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
                      guns on Youtube.

                      Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
                      from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
                      to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
                      Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
                      last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
                      This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
                      for the 4bore doubles he built.

                      And more from the old days, here is picture of
                      a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
                      And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
                      more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

                      3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
                      look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
                      we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
                      poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
                      pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
                      slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed


                      • #12
                        Some more slug experimenting and developement.
                        Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
                        we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
                        it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
                        The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
                        so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
                        Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
                        In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
                        slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
                        being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
                        where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
                        These slugs have real good shoulder step to
                        roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

                        These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
                        another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
                        that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
                        So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
                        the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
                        for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
                        Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
                        a bad deal to get them and change them.

                        Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
                        a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
                        16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
                        Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
                        cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
                        Picture #2

                        Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
                        penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
                        the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
                        witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
                        fair accuracy in smooth bores.

                        A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
                        on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
                        in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
                        we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
                        Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
                        first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
                        powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
                        we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
                        in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
                        all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
                        barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed


                        • #13
                          We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
                          using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
                          loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

                          In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
                          slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
                          base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
                          picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
                          About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
                          the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

                          Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
                          750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
                          10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
                          Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
                          and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
                          and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
                          down to these slugs...

                          A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
                          First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
                          Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
                          Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
                          front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
                          the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
                          flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
                          the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
                          plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
                          die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
                          of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
                          in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
                          have more room for our slower powders...

                          Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
                          cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
                          cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
                          expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
                          in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
                          as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped
                          behind press base in picture...Ed


                          • #14
                            Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
                            3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
                            3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom
                            a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

                            Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
                            into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
                            which made it possible to crimp that way.

                            Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.
                            Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made
                            a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and
                            size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.
                            Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with
                            right dies and punches.

                            Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,
                            a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,
                            and it is a real strong action....Ed


                            • #15
                              Any ideas on the 500 S&W New England rifles ?? Any potential to re chamber for a longer cartridge that would use slower powder to gain a higher velocity ??
                              America NO LONGER held hostage by ZERO the lying dictator.......:-)

                              Ohio, a government of the unions, by the unions, for the unions