Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

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Brian D.
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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by Brian D. » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:48 am

From just a layman's point of view I have a hard time understanding why any sheriff would knowingly allow portions of that federal form to be left blank. Seems like the potential is all downside, no upside to being 'discreet' about sharing data.

Granted it would likely never become an issue. Unless of course the gun was stolen and subsequently used in a crime. Or for that matter if the lawful owner went bad and used it in a crime, then vamoosed.

I get the idea of not wanting Uncle Sugar to have every last piece of data on my doings or possessions, but really if you're filling out one of these forms, you are telling the government you have a really, really, "EVIL" gun. What more harm is there giving the serial number?
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Uncle Duke
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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by Uncle Duke » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:01 am

The sheriff is probably able to refuse to sign the form if the application is incomplete, especially if the term "described" can be interpreted to include provision for a serial number:

“I have no information that possession of the firearm described in item 4 on the front of this form would place the transferee in violation of State or local law.”

I doubt that this is part of a plan by most sheriff's to create a database. The sheriff in my county has enough headaches to worry about, like funding cuts, layoffs, an over-crowded jail, lawsuits against deputies who are accused of using excessive force, wrongful deaths, and negotiated contracts with communities for police protection.

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Re: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can eith

Post by JediSkipdogg » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:06 am

NWBuckeye wrote:Color of Law Stated: an application must still be complete, and no court in the State of Ohio will make a sheriff sign an incomplete application.
Yet Sheriffs are not All doing the same. Some Sign off without a Serial Number Present, some don't. The big reason I believe is because I made the Sheriff Process my Customers Forms. You see he refused to Sign as my Customer lived within City Limits. He told him he refused as he lived in the City and wasn't required to sign. I sent him back with a print out of the new law, which showed the Sheriff was Required. All the CLEO Signature does is show the Buyer is Not in the Local System, and gives the CLEO the Power to Prevent a Normal Transfer. It's been used that way for years. I'm just looking for an Attorney to see if their is Legal way to Prevent the Serial Number from being Listed as it is Not Required for an Ohio CHL License. The new Law (311.43) states;
(C) The sheriff shall accept and process the certification in the same manner as an application for a concealed handgun license is processed under section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, including the requirement for a background check, except as follows:
Nothing there requires a Serial Number. The Sheriffs are creating their Own Data Base which I think is Illegal?
Try and take a car title to the BMV that was notarized but without the mileage filled out. Some may take it, most will not. Legally, they should not accept it at all.

Just because some are allowing it does not make it right nor legal. There are sheriff's in Ohio that don't require you to bring a photo for a CHL application. So, if I want to apply in Clermont county where they require it should I throw a fit and say X county doesn't require it?

The sheriff is signing of that he states the following...
I have no information indicating that the transferee will use the firearm or device described on this application for other than lawful purposes. I have no information that possession of the firearm described in item 4 on the front of this form would place the transferee in violation of State or local law.
How can he agree to the firearm described in item 4 without having all of the relevant information in section 4? It even says...."Description of Firearm (Complete items a through i)" So the "firearm described in item 4" is everything in "a through i." How can you fail to see that logic? Just because not all require it doesn't mean it's right.

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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by color of law » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:26 am

26 USC 5812
(a) Application
A firearm shall not be transferred unless
(1) the transferor of the firearm has filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, for the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee on the application form prescribed by the Secretary;
(2) any tax payable on the transfer is paid as evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form;
(3) the transferee is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph;
(4) the transferor of the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe;
(5) the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; and
(6) the application form shows that the Secretary has approved the transfer and the registration of the firearm to the transferee. Applications shall be denied if the transfer, receipt, or possession of the firearm would place the transferee in violation of law.
(b) Transfer of possession
The transferee of a firearm shall not take possession of the firearm unless the Secretary has approved the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee as required by subsection (a) of this section.
My question is what part of item (5) above is not understood?

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Uncle Duke
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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by Uncle Duke » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:32 am

I guess it boils down to, how badly do you want the NFA firearm and how soon do you want it. If your sheriff is willing to sign without a serial number, fine. If not, then you'll have to have the sheriff sign, get a different CLEO, prosecutor, or set up a trust (which may be on their way out if Obama gets his way if BATFE revisits the issue later this year).

If BATFE gets wind of this practice, it may mean the end of transfers through that particular CLEO and further scrutinizing of any transfers that you've already received, as well as possible criminal charges.

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Re: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can eith

Post by Werz » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:19 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:Try and take a car title to the BMV that was notarized but without the mileage filled out. Some may take it, most will not. Legally, they should not accept it at all.

Just because some are allowing it does not make it right nor legal.

***

How can he agree to the firearm described in item 4 without having all of the relevant information in section 4? It even says...."Description of Firearm (Complete items a through i)" So the "firearm described in item 4" is everything in "a through i." How can you fail to see that logic? Just because not all require it doesn't mean it's right.
Just for kicks and giggles, let's look at some auto titles which notaries public will sign. What about one with a blank line for the amount paid, so the transferee can lowball the price and pay less sales tax? What about ones with the transferee's information missing so it can be transferred to a third person without the middle-man purchaser ever taking title, even though the seller never had any contact or communication with the third party? Or what about the the notary who signs the jurat on a title that has been already signed (allegedly) by the transferror, when the transferee says, "Don't worry, I watched him sign it!" It's all fun and games until the notary gets caught in the middle of a fraudulent transaction and is suddenly sweating bullets. I've seen stuff like this happen many times, and the notary - who was usually just doing a favor for a friend - is now worrying about the possibility of criminal charges.

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Uncle Duke
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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by Uncle Duke » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:18 pm

I've had friends notarize my signature on a variety of forms (lately CHL applications for other states). They have expressed similar concerns about "what if...", such as getting their notarization and I mail the form without signing it or having another person sign the form.

I'm certain that a lot of forms get notarized improperly. I'm not one who is going to invite trouble or do anything (intentionally) to make life difficult for my friends who were/are doing me a favor.

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Re: There seems to be a Misunderstanding here........

Post by NWBuckeye » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:27 pm

I understand how NFA forms Work. Been doing this since 1997, so let me ask it in a different way as it seems interpreted wrong.
I am asking why a Serial Number is required Before the CLEO Signs off on the Form. I know the Form has to Show the Serial number, but only before it is Submitted to the NFA Branch. Maybe that is why I didn't understand why I was getting such screwy answers. As for anyone who mentioned that the Form must be Complete, I agree it must be Complete before the NFA Branch gets it, but "WHY" is a Serial Number required Before the Sheriff signs off?
How's that Worts? Any real Lawyers here in the Field care to answer?
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Re: Possible HB234 Violation by Sheriff's Office?

Post by JustaShooter » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:43 pm

NWBuckeye, you are ignoring a lawyer who has given you his opinion. What more do you want? Heck, if I were a CLEO there is *no* *way* *on* *earth* I would sign an incomplete form and I can't imagine why anyone would do so.
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Re: There seems to be a Misunderstanding here........

Post by JediSkipdogg » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:54 am

NWBuckeye wrote:I understand how NFA forms Work. Been doing this since 1997, so let me ask it in a different way as it seems interpreted wrong.
I am asking why a Serial Number is required Before the CLEO Signs off on the Form. I know the Form has to Show the Serial number, but only before it is Submitted to the NFA Branch. Maybe that is why I didn't understand why I was getting such screwy answers. As for anyone who mentioned that the Form must be Complete, I agree it must be Complete before the NFA Branch gets it, but "WHY" is a Serial Number required Before the Sheriff signs off?
How's that Worts? Any real Lawyers here in the Field care to answer?
Thanks. again.
Why is the mileage required BEFORE a notary signs a vehicle title? After all, I, as a notary, am simply only attesting that the signature was done by the person standing in front of me. Forms need to be complete for sign-off so the person certifying can say if they were altered after signing the or not. Blank spaces are pretty much easy methods to alter.


Why is the serial number required? Because the form says so. The sheriff by adding his signature is attesting to the following...

I have no information that possession of the firearm described in item 4 on the front of this form would place the transferee in violation of State or local law.

Item 4 requires a serial number as noted by "Description of Firearm (Complete items a through i)." So how can he attest to the firearm described in item 4 if it is not fully described? Why is Type, model, caliber, etc required then? Why fill out any of item 4 if you say it's not needed for the sheriff to attest that it would be in violation of local or state law?

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Re: There seems to be a Misunderstanding here........

Post by Werz » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:20 am

NWBuckeye wrote:I understand how NFA forms Work. Been doing this since 1997 ...
Then maybe you should take your Form 4 back to the same CLEO who was willing to sign the previous ones without a serial number.

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I actually did do that.It's apparent he doesn't like Machine

Post by NWBuckeye » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:21 pm

Werz wrote:
Then maybe you should take your Form 4 back to the same CLEO who was willing to sign the previous ones without a serial number.[/quote]

Alright folks. Here's the Deal. The Sheriff Refusing to Sign a Form 4 with just the "Serial Number" left out, will sign all the SBR's,SBS's, DD'S & Silencer forms all day long. He Won't sign off for a Machine gun until it lists the Serial Number. Apparently he doesn't like us having them anymore? Change of mind? Not sure. What is really amazing, is this particular Sheriff used to sign off on a Blank Form 4 Before he was required to! One possible reason I heard is, I told them he had to sign for someone living inside City Limits [311.43] instead of sending them to their Chief of Police. So it seems he didn't like being told what to do. Hope this clears it all up. Thanks in Advance.............
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Post by mean_sartin » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:57 am

NWBuckeye wrote:
Werz wrote: Then maybe you should take your Form 4 back to the same CLEO who was willing to sign the previous ones without a serial number.
Alright folks. Here's the Deal. The Sheriff Refusing to Sign a Form 4 with just the "Serial Number" left out, will sign all the SBR's,SBS's, DD'S & Silencer forms all day long. He Won't sign off for a Machine gun until it lists the Serial Number. Apparently he doesn't like us having them anymore? Change of mind? Not sure. What is really amazing, is this particular Sheriff used to sign off on a Blank Form 4 Before he was required to! One possible reason I heard is, I told them he had to sign for someone living inside City Limits [311.43] instead of sending them to their Chief of Police. So it seems he didn't like being told what to do. Hope this clears it all up. Thanks in Advance.............

Or he realized he wasn't doing things right......
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Re: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can eith

Post by willbird » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:23 pm

Werz wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Try and take a car title to the BMV that was notarized but without the mileage filled out. Some may take it, most will not. Legally, they should not accept it at all.

Just because some are allowing it does not make it right nor legal.

***

How can he agree to the firearm described in item 4 without having all of the relevant information in section 4? It even says...."Description of Firearm (Complete items a through i)" So the "firearm described in item 4" is everything in "a through i." How can you fail to see that logic? Just because not all require it doesn't mean it's right.
Just for kicks and giggles, let's look at some auto titles which notaries public will sign. What about one with a blank line for the amount paid, so the transferee can lowball the price and pay less sales tax? What about ones with the transferee's information missing so it can be transferred to a third person without the middle-man purchaser ever taking title, even though the seller never had any contact or communication with the third party? Or what about the the notary who signs the jurat on a title that has been already signed (allegedly) by the transferror, when the transferee says, "Don't worry, I watched him sign it!" It's all fun and games until the notary gets caught in the middle of a fraudulent transaction and is suddenly sweating bullets. I've seen stuff like this happen many times, and the notary - who was usually just doing a favor for a friend - is now worrying about the possibility of criminal charges.
The Notary is notarizing your signature, nothing else...how could they possibly verify any of the other information on the Vehicle Title ??

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Re: Sheriffs can't offer Legal Advise & I doubt you can eith

Post by JediSkipdogg » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:11 am

willbird wrote:
Werz wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Try and take a car title to the BMV that was notarized but without the mileage filled out. Some may take it, most will not. Legally, they should not accept it at all.

Just because some are allowing it does not make it right nor legal.

***

How can he agree to the firearm described in item 4 without having all of the relevant information in section 4? It even says...."Description of Firearm (Complete items a through i)" So the "firearm described in item 4" is everything in "a through i." How can you fail to see that logic? Just because not all require it doesn't mean it's right.
Just for kicks and giggles, let's look at some auto titles which notaries public will sign. What about one with a blank line for the amount paid, so the transferee can lowball the price and pay less sales tax? What about ones with the transferee's information missing so it can be transferred to a third person without the middle-man purchaser ever taking title, even though the seller never had any contact or communication with the third party? Or what about the the notary who signs the jurat on a title that has been already signed (allegedly) by the transferror, when the transferee says, "Don't worry, I watched him sign it!" It's all fun and games until the notary gets caught in the middle of a fraudulent transaction and is suddenly sweating bullets. I've seen stuff like this happen many times, and the notary - who was usually just doing a favor for a friend - is now worrying about the possibility of criminal charges.
The Notary is notarizing your signature, nothing else...how could they possibly verify any of the other information on the Vehicle Title ??

Bill
While true, a notary is asking for an oath as well. The oath is that everything on the document is true and complete. A blank is not complete. So a notary is technically suppose to not notarize a document that is not completely filled out.

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