Improving 40SW reloading safety

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willbird
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by willbird » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 am

Lyman 49 has some data for Ramshot enforcer in the 40 with a heavy bullet, shows it as a compressed loading. All the Lyman data stops around 24,000 psi or lower too. Lyman says enforcer is a powder similar to 2400 or AA #9.

22,300 psi with a 190 grain bullet at 967 fps

Ramshot themselves does not list it in 40

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploa ... _rifle.pdf

I was curious about Blue dot too as it fills a 45 acp case up pretty good.
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Ken45
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by Ken45 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:12 pm

willbird wrote:Lyman 49 has some data for Ramshot enforcer in the 40 with a heavy bullet, shows it as a compressed loading. All the Lyman data stops around 24,000 psi or lower too. Lyman says enforcer is a powder similar to 2400 or AA #9.

22,300 psi with a 190 grain bullet at 967 fps

Ramshot themselves does not list it in 40
That sounds suspicious IMO. 22,300 is WAY low pressure for 40SW which normally has a SAAMI maximum of 35,000 psi (yes, I see PSI vs. CUP). Moving a 190 gr bullet at 967 fps sounds very suspect at low pressures.

On a related topic, I just saw this website which shows the pressure jump in 40SW when a bullet ends up deep seated (via bad reloading, or via setback on the gun).
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

It shows pressure going from
32,900 psi at 1.100" COL to
50,950 psi at 1.050" COL and
101,286 psi at 1.010" :shock:

That's 0.090" difference, probably about the minimum that might be easily noticeable, to go from below max to almost 3x max! Yikes.

Ken
aka OhioPaints

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bornfree
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by bornfree » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:42 pm

Ken45 wrote:
willbird wrote:Lyman 49 has some data for Ramshot enforcer in the 40 with a heavy bullet, shows it as a compressed loading. All the Lyman data stops around 24,000 psi or lower too. Lyman says enforcer is a powder similar to 2400 or AA #9.

22,300 psi with a 190 grain bullet at 967 fps

Ramshot themselves does not list it in 40
That sounds suspicious IMO. 22,300 is WAY low pressure for 40SW which normally has a SAAMI maximum of 35,000 psi (yes, I see PSI vs. CUP). Moving a 190 gr bullet at 967 fps sounds very suspect at low pressures.

On a related topic, I just saw this website which shows the pressure jump in 40SW when a bullet ends up deep seated (via bad reloading, or via setback on the gun).
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

It shows pressure going from
32,900 psi at 1.100" COL to
50,950 psi at 1.050" COL and
101,286 psi at 1.010" :shock:

That's 0.090" difference, probably about the minimum that might be easily noticeable, to go from below max to almost 3x max! Yikes.

Ken

Thanks for the link Ken. Glad I bought the 165 gr. bullets.
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by SMMAssociates » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:42 pm

bornfree:

Nobody seems to have mentioned your .38 question....

The extra crimp ring won't bother anything....

Technically, it could weaken the case a little bit, but unless you're trying to shoot down spacecraft, or dealing with insanely hot loads, it shouldn't matter. The case is fully supported in that area, presuming a half-decent cylinder, so not a lot is going to happen unless the case is already on the edge, in which case one potential failure point is as good as another....

The issue with the case head area bulge (I'm told, courtesy of the Glocks) is that it weakens just part of the case, even if re-sized, and getting that portion of the same case back into the same unsupported zone, might be fun.

(Overall, standard range loads should be fine if you don't get into setback problems. I think I said this before, or at least thought about it :D, but the .40 is a modern design, built to push as much out of the system as possible in a small firearm. Loading a .38 with black powder pretty much says that if you can manage to force the bullet into the case, it's still safe. Not so with these little things.)

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Stu

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racer265
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by racer265 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:59 pm

I have had brass that had a bulge near the bottom end up in my range box. its been resized in my lee die and fired no problems.. im starting to wonder if I should pitch that brass???? Also im using a variety of bullets and bullet weights in my 40 reloads.. at the moment I have some 180 grain berrys plated with 5.1 grains of universal.. some zero 180 grain jhp's with 5.5 grains of universal..hornady 155 grain xtp with 5.8 grains universal and hornady 155 grain xtp with 5.0 grains of winchester wst.. I have shot probably 1000 of the berrys plated combo with good results out of a springfield xd 40. Has anybody seen any problems with any of these combinations out of this gun?? I have only been reloading for about 3 months but did alot of reading on the subject and have been very carefull about COAL.. which I set between 1.125 and 1.130. the only reason for the difference in oal is because the lee pro 1000 reloader i got does not seem to be very consistent in setting the bullet depth the same every time. so i set it just a hair long and measure every round coming out. if I get one thats too long I just run it back thru the seating die..
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Ken45
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by Ken45 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:07 pm

It was 5.7 gr of Universal with a 180gr JHP (Win) that ruptured the brass in my gun. 1.123" COL. At the time, a number of other people had problems with Universal. I would be very careful with it. (Well, **I** won't even use it in 40SW.) But I know of other people who successfully use it in 40SW without having run into problems.

Too long COL is okay as long as your gun feeds it reliably.

As for the bulged brass in your box, it depends on how badly it is bulged. I find that most 40SW needs resizing. But anything that I see with a significant bulge gets pitched. If it's something that I can feel but not readily see, then I just run it through the Lee Bulge Buster. I run all my 40SW brass through the BB. My Springfield EMP seems to have a tight chamber. The BB resizes it down to new specs.

Ken
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by willbird » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:11 pm

Ken45 wrote:It was 5.7 gr of Universal with a 180gr JHP (Win) that ruptured the brass in my gun. 1.123" COL. At the time, a number of other people had problems with Universal. I would be very careful with it. (Well, **I** won't even use it in 40SW.) But I know of other people who successfully use it in 40SW without having run into problems.

Too long COL is okay as long as your gun feeds it reliably.

As for the bulged brass in your box, it depends on how badly it is bulged. I find that most 40SW needs resizing. But anything that I see with a significant bulge gets pitched. If it's something that I can feel but not readily see, then I just run it through the Lee Bulge Buster. I run all my 40SW brass through the BB. My Springfield EMP seems to have a tight chamber. The BB resizes it down to new specs.

Ken
The old timers "worked up" with all kinds of powders til they got "sticky extraction".....pretty scary to exceed the yield strength of the brass in some revolvers :-). But for sure do not try that with Universal, I did so and it went from the cases falling out, to one being very tight (32 H&R magnum in a single six) in just a tenth of a grain.
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by Ken45 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:16 am

Bill,

Some people suspect that Universal has a very steep pressure curve. I don't know one way or the other but 7 of the 8 40SW problems reported in the old CIS forum, the people were using Universal. Makes one wonder....makes some of us avoid Universal in 40SW.

Another thing that I suspect plays into the 40SW rupture issue is a combination of bulge and the gun firing out of battery. With a slight bulge, a round may not fully chamber. If the gun fires out of battery, that means even more unsupported brass. The Sig P226, where I had the case rupture, will fire slightly out of battery. I can envision a round not fully chambering and the small additional unsupported area being too much for the brass to take with a hot load. (My load was 0.1 gr below max.)

Note also that most reloading manuals state that their loads are ONLY for fully supported barrels. I don't think there are many guns in 40SW that meet that qualification.

I suspect that there are a lot of small factors that get into play. When they combine, we have a problem that shows up in marginal rounds like 40SW.

Ken
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by willbird » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:31 am

Ken45 wrote:
willbird wrote:Lyman 49 has some data for Ramshot enforcer in the 40 with a heavy bullet, shows it as a compressed loading. All the Lyman data stops around 24,000 psi or lower too. Lyman says enforcer is a powder similar to 2400 or AA #9.

22,300 psi with a 190 grain bullet at 967 fps

Ramshot themselves does not list it in 40
That sounds suspicious IMO. 22,300 is WAY low pressure for 40SW which normally has a SAAMI maximum of 35,000 psi (yes, I see PSI vs. CUP). Moving a 190 gr bullet at 967 fps sounds very suspect at low pressures.

On a related topic, I just saw this website which shows the pressure jump in 40SW when a bullet ends up deep seated (via bad reloading, or via setback on the gun).
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

It shows pressure going from
32,900 psi at 1.100" COL to
50,950 psi at 1.050" COL and
101,286 psi at 1.010" :shock:

That's 0.090" difference, probably about the minimum that might be easily noticeable, to go from below max to almost 3x max! Yikes.

Ken
All of Lymans data is on the low side for 40 Ken, my guess is they stayed way on the safe side. I was in error, it is CUP, but 23,400 CUP is the highest any load goes in Lyman 49...most are 22,000 to 23,000. They also say only to fire those loads in guns with fully supported chambers.

.090" (3/32) is a LONG way Ken :-)...... .125" is 1/8 of an inch...some of us guys "notice" .010" or less but we have the so called "micrometer eye".

I'm still a doubter about the "out of battery"....the striker or hammer may drop, but I'm a doubter that the gun will actually fire, internal safeties might slow the striker. The M16 and many other closed bolt machine guns drop the hammer while the bolt is closing...in the case of the M16 as I recall the timing is about .05"...but "bolt bounce" in some cases has the gun unlock more before the hammer hits, and the round does NOT fire because the hammer hits the carrier which robs energy from the system and gives you "light hits" on the primer. This shows up in the Atchison 22lr ar-15/m16 conversion...so much so that a slide hammer anti-bounce weight was added...and or people use a ball bearing detent to prevent bolt bounce.

If the guns will actually FIRE out of battery, get rid of them, they are junk. Any little piece of detritus is just waiting to blow your head off. When I had my 1911 totally completely custom built the chamber was very tight, and .05" out of battery due to a tight round prevented the gun from firing.....once the pistolsmith ran a saami reamer in the chamber the gun runs like a top....he wanted to when he built the gun but I insisted we wait and see how the gun shot before and after, in the end there was no accuracy gain from an overly tight chamber.

In a locked breech browning design pistol(or any other locked breech gun), an out of battery discharge is a far more serious matter than just the unsupported case...the mechanism is not designed to work as a blowback, if if it is unlocked, or partially so....that is where we end up.
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by Ken45 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:57 am

Bill,

I have manually held the slide back a hair or two and pulled the trigger on the P226. Being handheld (and only two hands), I don't have a measurement. I expect that most combat handguns will fire a bit out of battery because one does not want a jam up when a flake of unburned powder, or something else like brass .02" longer than spec, holds it back a hair and your life depends on it. Precision target guns would be another story.

Ken
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by Ken45 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:58 am

.090" (3/32) is a LONG way Ken :-)...... .125" is 1/8 of an inch...some of us guys "notice" .010" or less but we have the so called "micrometer eye".
If you look at the Los Alamos article, you can see the difference in COL of some of the cartridges they were experimenting with.

Ken
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by willbird » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:16 am

Ken45 wrote:
.090" (3/32) is a LONG way Ken :-)...... .125" is 1/8 of an inch...some of us guys "notice" .010" or less but we have the so called "micrometer eye".
If you look at the Los Alamos article, you can see the difference in COL of some of the cartridges they were experimenting with.

Ken
Often there is some visual point of reference that will allow you to see the setback, like the end of the full dia of the bullet where the ogive starts, it is a lot easier to see a .03" vs 000 difference right there than to spot it on oal of say a 9x19 fmj
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Re: Improving 40SW reloading safety

Post by bornfree » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:57 am

SMMAssociates wrote:bornfree:

Nobody seems to have mentioned your .38 question....

The extra crimp ring won't bother anything....

Technically, it could weaken the case a little bit, but unless you're trying to shoot down spacecraft, or dealing with insanely hot loads, it shouldn't matter. The case is fully supported in that area, presuming a half-decent cylinder, so not a lot is going to happen unless the case is already on the edge, in which case one potential failure point is as good as another....

The issue with the case head area bulge (I'm told, courtesy of the Glocks) is that it weakens just part of the case, even if re-sized, and getting that portion of the same case back into the same unsupported zone, might be fun.

Thanks Stu. Just wanted to double check on the 38's as they have the crimp ring about half way down with another one about 3/16" below that. Sounds like they are good to go though. They are nice clean brass all in their original boxes.

As far as the 40's go, they do seem to bulge a little at the bottom but fired cases will go back in barrel with little resistence. After resizing they fall into the barrel.

(Overall, standard range loads should be fine if you don't get into setback problems. I think I said this before, or at least thought about it :D, but the .40 is a modern design, built to push as much out of the system as possible in a small firearm. Loading a .38 with black powder pretty much says that if you can manage to force the bullet into the case, it's still safe. Not so with these little things.)

Regards,
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902)

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